|
Post by tiswell on Jan 10, 2011 11:37:36 GMT -5
Guys, My experience with the stock barrel has been inconsistent. I can achieve several shots in 11/2" or less @ 100 yards once in a while, but then it will throw one 5 inches out of the group. Rifle is bedded, scope mounts have been checked, scope was swapped out to rule that out, tried dirty and clean between shotsI have spent enough $$ in components that I could have funded half the cost of an aftermarket barrel by now and I am considering the change as an alternative to spending more. I have appreciated the help and suggestions along the way long the way to try and get it to shoot consistently, but now that the hunting season is over I am planning on upgrading to an aftermarket barrel.
My goal is to end up with a rifle that is capable of consistently shoot into a 2"group @ 100 yards in hunting situations. The best way I can think of to describe what I mean by this, would be be 5 one shot groups. Is this level of performance feasible with a Pac-nor? At this time I do not plan to shoot sabotless and I would prefer to stay with a 50 cal unless your feedback would overwhelmingly steer me to a 45. I would like to know from those of you with a Pac-nor if this level of performance can be realized. Thanks, Bill
|
|
|
Post by 153 on Jan 10, 2011 11:55:47 GMT -5
I FEEL YOUR PAIN ;D. I went through the same thing, except I spent enought in different sabots(8), powders(5744, 4198, N110, N120 and 322), and bullets(250XTP, 300XTP, 260DC, 300B0, 250 BARNES MZ, 300 BARNES MZ, 275 BARNES PISTOL BULLET, 250SST AND 275 PARKER), to purchase and install a new barrel. Also all the time and gas going to the range. My gun was pillared and bedded by 1Shot. It stiill would give one good group then next group would spray. I let RB install a 45Pac on my gun and now everything I push down the barrel saboted, I have yet to try sabotless, will shoot sub MOA at 100yards and 2-2-1/2" at 200 yards. I can not commit on a 50 Pac but I think results would be similar. If I would have installed the 45Pac to begin with I would be richer today.
|
|
|
Post by 12ptdroptine on Jan 10, 2011 12:19:57 GMT -5
And I also feel your pain.... I spent the price of a Pacnor on everything I could get trying to get my Savage barrel to shoot.... Fair group's..then all over again. The Pacnor .45 has a more limited supply of bullet's... But everyone I have read about here is shooting submoa . Mine is shooting submoa out @200 yds...And I am just an average shooter. My advice is 1. Make sure your routine is the same EVERY time 2. Be sure to use a cooling rod After that I would say if you cant find the magic load for it.....Move on . Seems as though there are those who got some really good shooter's on this board(Stock Savage Barrel) And just as many if not more that just cant seem to get them to group well. The knowledge here on this board is like the Encyclopedia Britannica of the smokeless world. Ask anyone here and they are more than glad to help. Some question the effectiveness of the .45 to the .50. But a 200grn bullet flying at close to 3000fps is more like a .308 or 30-06..... How many question those? I see more and more thread's like this one the longer I read here. Again I feel your pain. Ask some others who have converted. I know of none who would go back. So I would have to say that the level you desire most likely could be achieved on your first trip to the range. Good Luck and Good Shooting Drop
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2011 12:21:18 GMT -5
well sounds like you have the same problem others have had in the past, yes i WAS one of them but after i went to a 45 pac barrel it is always well under an inch, most of the time under 1/2" for 5 shots. I did much more than just a barrel and spent some coins on my rig but every time I pull the trigger it makes me smile.....Bill
|
|
|
Post by jims on Jan 10, 2011 12:31:08 GMT -5
I have a .40 RB PacNor barrel that shoots well. That said I have/had two .50 stock Savages that also shot well. I suppose those that do not shoot well and convert would not go back, many apparrently shot well enough in .50 form as finding no need to buy a .45 or .40. I am always trying new gun items and that certainly has it costs and sometimes a benefit but I could have lived out the rest of my days with the two stock .50s and never really have a complaint. There are enough take off .50 barrels at reasonable prices that you could get and try but if they are takeoffs it may be because that barrel could not be made to shoot so you would not want it if they would give it to you. My excellent .50 take off I have kept and is not for sale, I can spin it back on it I need a bigger bore etc. Just some thoughts. Also I had the advantage of getting my .40 directly from RB. He had put it thru the paces before I ever got it and it shot from day one and a deal he gave me on it besides. He set the price but it was reasonable.
|
|
Billy
8 Pointer
Posts: 188
|
Post by Billy on Jan 10, 2011 14:50:33 GMT -5
I don't know what you're planning to hunt, Tiswell, but the 45, IMHO, is better for deer sized game because of flatter trajectory and much less recoil than the 50.
|
|
|
Post by Richard on Jan 10, 2011 15:37:17 GMT -5
Tiswel........I went the same route. Two .50 Savage barrels and neither would shoot up to my standards. 1.5" one time, 3.0" the next and worse. Every time I shot a different combination, it would imprint in a different location. Then I wised up and bought a .45 PN and it was like I just got a new Bench Rifle! Jeff shoots a couple of .50 PN's and claims they do good? I also know he just ordered a .45 PN? I put a .50 PN on another members rifle and I think he is struggling a bit with it? Everyone who has put on a .45 has done nothing but sing praises over them. And as Droptines indicated, a flat shooting 195 Barnes or 200 SST is capable of taking ANY antlered North American game and I wouldn't hesitate to include black bear either. Richard
|
|
|
Post by tiswell on Jan 11, 2011 8:12:43 GMT -5
Guys, So it sounds like the 45 is the safer bet! Now I have to pester you all again. I have a Stainless laminated ML-II(not thumbhole), what length,contour, twist rate, number of grooves, Groove/ land diameter, breech plug spec, do I order to get the right set up to shoot saboted 45 caliber bullets?
Thanks again, Bill
|
|
|
Post by tar12 on Jan 11, 2011 9:34:40 GMT -5
The DD standard. 1-22 twist.The barrel starts life out at 28 in. long. I do not like that length as it makes it very barrel heavy.26 in is not much better for balance.The next one is going to sport a fluted .24 in barrel.I would have a min. of 2 in. cut off and have them save the barrel drop if you want to order a full form die from Post over at Swinglock for shooting sabotless.
|
|
larry
8 Pointer
Posts: 172
|
Post by larry on Jan 11, 2011 10:10:44 GMT -5
The DD standard. 1-22 twist.The barrel starts life out at 28 in. long. I do not like that length as it makes it very barrel heavy.26 in is not much better for balance.The next one is going to sport a fluted .24 in barrel.I would have a min. of 2 in. cut off and have them save the barrel drop if you want to order a full form die from Post over at Swinglock for shooting sabotless. Rick, Thats the way I ordered my pacnor. dd std,24in.-fluted. When me and Richard switched barrels, we weighed the orig.and the pac. Best I remember , they were within 2-3 ozs. of each other.So, if you like the weight and length of the orig. savage , just order a 24in. fluted and you will be close.
|
|
|
Post by tar12 on Jan 11, 2011 11:39:10 GMT -5
Larry, When I weighed the Pac-Nor 28 in barrel it was almost 1 lb. heavier than the stock savage . I would love to get the weight down to 8lbs decked out! This build is for my son.
|
|
|
Post by Jon on Jan 11, 2011 12:20:50 GMT -5
Jim. I wasn't that lucky Till I went to custom made bullets. Thank you Smoke. I did better with my 12 gage and double 0. I'm with Richard if you get a bad barrel it is a struggle. I have a ml1 and a pre acutrigger that have a good barrel and shoot well. Jon
|
|
|
Post by alphaburnt on Jan 11, 2011 18:03:21 GMT -5
Could the barrel weight be coming from the contour? I think Al is going to send his takeoff Rem700ML barrel to DD or PacNor and see what they come up with for a contour to fit the Rem700MLs stock.
|
|
|
Post by tommytjr on Jan 11, 2011 18:28:26 GMT -5
I have a question on this conversion. When you guys are shooting the .45 with a sabot are you using a 40. cal bullet with a mmp sabot or ? I am in the same boat as the rest of you have went down and instead of wasting more money on bullets and stuff, trying to find something that shoots good. I will just order me a barrel. Thanks Tony
|
|
|
Post by Richard on Jan 11, 2011 18:31:59 GMT -5
I would not be eager to remove too much weight? ? Don't forget, More weight..............Less felt recoil! If I were to buy a PN strictly for hunting, I would go 25"; if it was going to be strictly a "stand" gun, 26" If you get too long, the gun get a bit muzzle heavy As Tar indicated............just get the dd special; you will not be sorry. Richard
|
|
|
Post by tar12 on Jan 11, 2011 20:04:42 GMT -5
tommy, most are shooting .40 dia bullets in sabots while a few are shooting .45 dia. sabotless.
|
|
|
Post by tar12 on Jan 11, 2011 20:26:14 GMT -5
Could the barrel weight be coming from the contour? I think Al is going to send his takeoff Rem700ML barrel to DD or PacNor and see what they come up with for a contour to fit the Rem700MLs stock. It sure is coming from the contour! And there is no reason for it!Especially in the .45 when you are shooting a much lighter pill than the .50.Sure you can shoot to 3000 fps and it will recoil! Personally, I could care less about 3000 fps.2650-2750 fps is shooting a 195 a lot flatter than a .50shooting a 250 grn bullet and with a lot less recoil and is plenty to kill deer at 300yds plus.I would also venture to say that is more than far enough for most shooters abilities under field conditions.Hold on hair and its down unless you live in Ohio! ;D I hate the 10 lb plus decked out boat anchor.I would glady fork out the cash for barrel that resulted in a 8.5 lb gun decked out!
|
|
|
Post by alphaburnt on Jan 11, 2011 20:46:21 GMT -5
Tar 12, I am in agreement with you about the lighter gun, but, has anyone had success in grouping sub moa with a contoured and lighter barrel? I would not trade 3/4" groups for 1 3/4" groups for the sake of 1 1/2 lbs. Maybe thats why these PN seem to shoot so darn good is they are closer to a bull bbl?
|
|
|
Post by dannoboone on Jan 11, 2011 22:36:10 GMT -5
"Maybe thats why these PN seem to shoot so darn good is they are closer to a bull bbl?"
Not really. The OD contour is the same in the .45 DD PacNor as in the .50 Savage factory barrel. The only thing different is the size of the bore (.458").
As for accuracy, there are several reasons....closer tolerances and hand-lapping to name a couple.
|
|
|
Post by Harley on Jan 11, 2011 23:08:43 GMT -5
My Pac-Nor .45 is 25", standard contour and fluted; it still weighs a ton, not someting I'd want to still-hunt through the woods with, but I'm a stand hunter and could care less about the weight. The recoil is minimal (I've yet to feel it when shooting at deer) and it groups sub-MOA (sabotless) past 400 yards with a MV somewhere around 2400 fps. What's not to like?
Harley
|
|
|
Post by tar12 on Jan 12, 2011 6:11:38 GMT -5
I am in agreement with Danno here.It is all about the quality of the barrel.I have seen some outstanding groups out of NULAs.Their barrels are much lighter.I would like that happy medium between the Nula and the Pac .45.Yeah, I know never satisfied! But that is what keeps progress moving forwards! I see no reason why a lighter contoured barrel from Pac-Nor will not result in a lighter and just as accurate and more pleasurable to pack muzzy!
|
|
|
Post by jims on Jan 12, 2011 6:45:21 GMT -5
Tar12: I suspect you are correct but who wants to be the first to try and then if it did not shoot as well. Oh well that is the chance one takes.
|
|
|
Post by tiswell on Jan 12, 2011 8:01:08 GMT -5
Guys, Thanks for all of the input! I called Pac-nor yesterday and got pricing for a DD standard. I am going to marinate over the barrel length and fluting while I scratch together the down payment. My kids are going to love me for changing to a 45. They will have a bunch of my 50 cal stuff to shoot next year!
|
|
|
Post by Chris Champion on Jan 12, 2011 8:48:26 GMT -5
I've debated sending my barrel to Pacnor to have it re-contoured to cut some weight. I haven't checked with them yet on pricing but my quess is they would do this for a decent price. Looking at their weight calculator on their web site one could go with a #6 contour and save 1.77lbs vs the #7 taper or a Light Palma and save 1.39 lbs.
|
|
|
Post by Richard on Jan 12, 2011 22:26:22 GMT -5
Chris...........My advice is to not have an "already button rifled barrel" contoured. What happens is the "button" which impresses the rifling into the bore, actually compresses the steel. Yes, they stress relieve, but it is not known just how much stress is relieved? So, as you remove steel from the outside, it "can" allegedly, allow the bore to expand! How much? Beats the tar out of me, but I would not take the chance of ruining a good barrel for the sake of ..............maybe 8 oz. On a "cut" rifled barrel, there is little stress induced as the cutter is simply scraping or removing steel vs. compressing it. With a button rifled barrel the contouring should be done prior to rifling. Maybe in a ML it will not amount to a hill of beans??? Richard
|
|
|
Post by Harley on Jan 12, 2011 22:36:33 GMT -5
Good points, Richard.
Harley
|
|
|
Post by Jon on Jan 13, 2011 9:39:31 GMT -5
Richard. Your input is always appreciated. To me always educational. Jon
|
|
|
Post by Chris Champion on Jan 13, 2011 16:59:30 GMT -5
Good info Richard. Thanks for the input.
|
|
|
Post by 12ptdroptine on Jan 13, 2011 18:02:58 GMT -5
Chris...........My advice is to not have an "already button rifled barrel" contoured. What happens is the "button" which impresses the rifling into the bore, actually compresses the steel. Yes, they stress relieve, but it is not known just how much stress is relieved? So, as you remove steel from the outside, it "can" allegedly, allow the bore to expand! How much? Beats the tar out of me, but I would not take the chance of ruining a good barrel for the sake of ..............maybe 8 oz. On a "cut" rifled barrel, there is little stress induced as the cutter is simply scraping or removing steel vs. compressing it. With a button rifled barrel the contouring should be done prior to rifling. Maybe in a ML it will not amount to a hill of beans??? Richard This makes me glad I ordered a full bull 1" barrel from start to finish!
|
|
|
Post by deadon on Jan 13, 2011 18:21:04 GMT -5
Larry, When I weighed the Pac-Nor 28 in barrel it was almost 1 lb. heavier than the stock savage . I would love to get the weight down to 8lbs decked out! This build is for my son. Rick, build Q a 20lb rifle, he can handle it ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
|
|