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Post by ET on Sept 3, 2010 21:07:57 GMT -5
It amazes me how differently the bible is interpreted by different denominations. Yet they agree on many points but for some reason have to disagree on some points hence dividing the Body of Christ into separate denominations. But I would like to hear what others believe is the answer to a few questions concerning the soul.
By definition what is a soul? It definitely is not a spirit. It doesn’t have physical recognition that can be seen. It identifies who we are as individuals. But if you actually have to define what it is how would you do that?
When the physical body dies what immediately transpires with the soul?
And quotes from the bible are appreciated and welcomed also.
Ed
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Post by ozark on Sept 3, 2010 21:41:56 GMT -5
You are not the only one amazed at how people inerpet the Bible. Take the verse that states: "The sole that sinnith shall die." This brings into question that Christ died on the cross for our sins. It also brings into question eternity. But it is my bedtime now. I will dwell on this further another time. Since the soul is capable of committing sin then it must be the living being or the being's mind. Good topic. Ben
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Post by dougedwards on Sept 3, 2010 22:10:56 GMT -5
The English word "soul" is translated from the Hebrew word "nephesh" which had several meanings all of which referenced some form of life. In Genesis even the animals are called "souls". Even blood is called "nephesh".
I am not sure where the notion of the immortal soul originated as I have not found any reference to it in the Bible. I do know that the immortal soul is mentioned early in Roman Catholic Church history probably because of such scriptures as Hebrews 9:27 "it is appointed for a man to die once and then comes judgment." How can something receive any judgment if it is not living?
This assumption does ignore the fact that man is also spirit. "The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are the children of God" And even as the wages of sin is death our souls receive the wages of death only once but our spirits live on to receive judgment. Eternal life is not granted to all but only to those who humble themselves before the Living God and then it is a gift.
I only hope that this didn't muddy the waters even more.
Doug
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Post by ozark on Sept 4, 2010 8:28:02 GMT -5
This one can go to all points of the compass including a shoe or foot part. I think I will not make the water more muddy by stiring it.
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Post by ET on Sept 4, 2010 9:17:57 GMT -5
Gentlemen, Thank you for your replies.
Dougedwards
No you haven’t really muddied the waters but added information to consider.
I will have to admit I have been neglectful in reading God’s word and now desire to renew my efforts and seek certain answers. For some reason my previous questions is now my renewed starting point.
So far my journey has revealed that in the Old Testament it mentions death as a sort of dormant state outside the realm of the living. Yes the physical body decays away and I can only see the Soul as being considered in what I term as in a dormant state. Now in the New Testament Jesus referred to Lazarus as being asleep before raising him from the dead (John 11:11). This also confirms of what the Old Testament said about death.
Now if we move on to the point of Christ’s crucifixion a transition occurs. First 2-other men are crucified with Christ. I would like to think of them as a nonbeliever and a believer. The believer asked Christ to remember him when He went into His Kingdom. Christ responded to the believer that he would be with him in paradise this day, Luke 23: 41-43. So obviously the believer on the cross was not going to go sleep but transcend into paradise (Heaven). Here I see that the Soul would make this transition and the physical body left behind. Also noted that the Temple Veil that separated God from man was torn open at the time of Christ’s death that signifies the removal of this barrier.
Now with my limited understanding I can also see that all believers who accepted Christ should experience this transition upon physical death. As for the non-believers I can only see their souls going to the dormant/sleep state at this point in time until the Resurrection.
The reason I refer to the Soul being immortal is that I can’t find anywhere in the Bible that says it ceases to exist once it is created. There may be a transition of the soul into a spirit that I don’t fully understand yet.
Ed
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Post by dougedwards on Sept 4, 2010 11:07:30 GMT -5
Just a little more help from the words of Jesus found in the 5th chapter of the gospel according to John
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
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Post by ozark on Sept 4, 2010 15:27:51 GMT -5
What is the sole? From the Bible version we know that it is capable of sinning. Therefore, It must be the mind or the inner person of mankind. I think it is the mind. We mentally select what we do good or bad. We study the Bible by using our minds and use the mind to reach decisions on what we read means. Our beliefs and our understanding of the Bible is a product of the mind. Our conscience, that little voice that warns us, that gently attempts to guide us is another thing to think about. When I get to heaven I will get all these questions answered. If I don't get there then you will have to ask the questions. Ben
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Post by ET on Sept 5, 2010 8:26:38 GMT -5
Dougedwards
Thanks for that additional direction for more information. I will also be looking at the Rapture and Transfiguration to see how the Soul is tied into all this. The only certainty I can fathom at this point in time is that the Soul will eventually be separated from our current physical body that has a limited time span.
Ozark
Not having a specific definition of a Soul for a person the reference of the mind of the inner person I find intriguing. But here I have to also look into the realm of Angels (Spirits) for comparison. They have Freedom of thought, Freedom of choosing an action and Freedom of choice such as a person has. Here I’m hoping to find a difference or commonality in helping me to better define and better understand what a Soul is.
Ed
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Post by ET on Sept 8, 2010 20:55:51 GMT -5
I see there are not many who really want to touch this topic and I don’t blame them because of the controversy that can result.
Well I am content with the definition of a Soul being that it is the individual human personality, which is immaterial and invisible. It can be called either soul or spirit. Luke:1 46-47.
The Soul does not die according to what is found in the following. John:11 25 and Luke:16 19-31.
As for what happens to the Soul when physical death occurs I am currently reading “The Bible on the Life Hereafter” by William Hendriksen in association with the Bible. Here I am finding some revelations and answers to my 2nd question.
Ed
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Post by ET on Sept 20, 2010 20:00:21 GMT -5
Just a follow up note on my search for some answers.
Well in Ecclesastes 12:17; Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and the spirit (Soul) shall return unto God who gave it.
To me the Soul doesn’t die but lives on for what I term placement with out the resurrected body after reading other scripture. It is not aware of what is happening here on earth nor can it interact in anyway.
Now for the term sleep in the Bible often used when a person dies. So lets just look at the word sleep as we define it. It is a condition when a person is resting, not aware of his surroundings and not interacting with the world. He in effect is in a dormant state in the eyes of the living.
When thinking back to the times of when the Bible was written and the limitation of language expressing a point with words to describe as such were limited. They knew the body would decay but still the term sleep was employed. This can only express a condition that was not finite.
The only other point I can confidently express from my looking for answers is that the wicked and unbelievers will not be found with the believers after physical death.
Since I started this thread I felt a type of closure was appropriate with the answers I found to my questions. Now to find answers for some other unanswered questions I have.
Ed
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Post by ozark on Sept 20, 2010 20:33:56 GMT -5
Is it Mathews 7 that mentions: Seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be given unto you. May not be exact quote but your search is not only an interesting one but a most important one. Good luck and keep up your research. Ben
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Post by ET on Sept 20, 2010 21:39:06 GMT -5
Is it Mathews 7 that mentions: Seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be given unto you. May not be exact quote but your search is not only an interesting one but a most important one. Good luck and keep up your research. Ben Ozark Thanks for the encouragement and yes my journey for seeking and learning will continue. Many want to hear “Well done faithful servant” as said from the Bible but I would be happy to hear (not Biblically recorded) “Your long hard journey in life is now over” when my time ends here. I’m not seeking physical death to come quickly but look forward to a new beginning without sin, as God promised. Ed
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Post by Douglas on Sept 21, 2010 0:00:28 GMT -5
Well according to the King James Bible in Genesis chapter 2 verse 7 AND THE LORD GOD FORMED MAN OF THE DUST OF THE GROUND AND BREATHED INTO HIS NOSTRILS THE BREATH OF LIFE; AND MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL. It is my understanding that when we die our soul goes back to God who created it, then we will be judged for the life we lived. DOUGLAS
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Post by ET on Sept 21, 2010 8:00:47 GMT -5
Well according to the King James Bible in Genesis chapter 2 verse 7 AND THE LORD GOD FORMED MAN OF THE DUST OF THE GROUND AND BREATHED INTO HIS NOSTRILS THE BREATH OF LIFE; AND MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL. It is my understanding that when we die our soul goes back to God who created it, then we will be judged for the life we lived. DOUGLAS Douglas That held truth at a time before Christ’s arrival. Consider the time the Old Testament was written and surrounding circumstances. Now all who believe and accept Christ will be forgiven of their sins. His sacrificed blood will wash away the stain of sin and atone for our transgressions. Salvation is Grace from God through Christ’s payment for our sins. It is my understanding we inherited our sinful nature from Adam & Eve down through the generations. All our combined works have been compared to filthy rags so we can’t earn our way into heaven. Only acknowledging and accepting Jesus as the Son of God and the sacrifice He made can we enter into the kingdom of Heaven. By accepting Christ we try to change the way we live our lives to please him and often stumble at times throughout our existing lifetime because of our sinful nature. But the blood shed by Christ will cover all when we repent of our transgressions in our lifetime. Once we physically die there are no more chances to repent or accept Christ for Salvation. There is much I am still learning and trying to understand. But the main point to me is that Christ is the only key to Salvation. There is no other way. Ed
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Post by swampman on Sept 21, 2010 12:13:43 GMT -5
The soul that is predestined to eternal life cannot die. The soul that is predestined to dammnation cannot live eternally.
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Post by ozark on Sept 21, 2010 12:23:36 GMT -5
predestination? Does that mean that everything is already determined and that our own actions have no bearing on changing things in your opinion swampman?
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Post by swampman on Sept 21, 2010 16:43:23 GMT -5
Our actions have no bearing on our salvation. Of course if we are elect our actions will likely show it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2010 17:37:14 GMT -5
Our actions have no bearing on our salvation. Of course if we are elect our actions will likely show it. I usually don't enter into the theological discussions that come up on this board. Then there are times when I can't help myself The argument concerning election has been a hotly debated topic since the beginning of the church. Without jumping into the fire I wonder how the above quote could possibly be reconciled to .... John 3:16 Romans 4:3 Romans 5:1-2 Romans 10:9-10 These are but a few of the most well known verses where that God not only desires, but calls all men to enter into a loving relationship with Him. As in all loving relationships it's only possible if both parties involved make that choice. The thought that God created some to eternal bliss while creating others to eternal damnation [double election] is totally contrary to the nature and character of the Triune God Head.... The destination of our eternal souls have been decided for sure.... There are but two....Our faith or lack of faith is what determines which destination we arrive at...... Remember that God desires that no man should perish and that all would have everlasting life. Zen
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Post by ET on Sept 21, 2010 17:59:06 GMT -5
The soul that is predestined to eternal life cannot die. The soul that is predestined to dammnation cannot live eternally. Swampman I really can’t accept the concept of the Soul assigned to damnation not living eternally. If this was true then all those who did wicked things and committed atrocities would be handed a cakewalk into non-existence without accountability. Matt. 25:46 “And those shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” Jesus made this statement and everlasting punishment I can interpret only one way. Everlasting is a constant continuation with no end in sight. An eternal condition. Punishment can’t be placed on a Soul without existence. Or simply asked, How do you punish nothing? Ed
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Post by swampman on Sept 21, 2010 18:10:47 GMT -5
Everlasting isn't forever. If the lost have eternal life then it's just a matter of geography.
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Post by ET on Sept 21, 2010 18:35:41 GMT -5
Everlasting isn't forever. If the lost have eternal life then it's just a matter of geography. Swampman Respectfully I have to ask what you are basing your comments on? Is there scriptural backing that would support these comments? Ed
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Post by ozark on Sept 21, 2010 19:19:17 GMT -5
If two people agree that the King James version of the bible is the inspired word of God and if they believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God who lived on earth as a man then there would be a solid foundation for serious study and discussions. What is contained in that Bible means nothing to those who base their religion on another written book. The Bible cannot be successfully used to prove anything to those who don't accept it as the true inspired word of God. What is written therein is accepted as gospel to those who believe in the Christ Jesus. It is for this reason that religious wars have been fought from the beginning of recorded history and the reason that this trend will continue. There is no benefit of quoting scriptures from this bible unless the listener or reader accepts the Bible as the basis for salvation and the foundation for faith. If a person honestly doesn't believe the Bible as the inspired word of God then there is little use in efforts other than to convince them that this is the window in which we can understand truth. It is difficult for me to accept that most of the world's people doesn't accept the bible we use as God's word. I bring up this point only as food for thought. Ben
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Post by swampman on Sept 21, 2010 19:25:28 GMT -5
The Bible always uses the word “aion” (age, limited time) when speaking of the future punishment of unrepentant sinners.
I believe the Bible is the perfect Word of God but without the Holy Ghost it's just another book that's a trap for the dammed and a guide for the elect.
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Post by ET on Sept 21, 2010 20:06:40 GMT -5
The Bible always uses the word “aion” (age, limited time) when speaking of the future punishment of unrepentant sinners. I believe the Bible is the perfect Word of God but without the Holy Ghost it's just another book that's a trap for the dammed and a guide for the elect. Again I ask: What Scripture would you use to reference/support your comments? Ed
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Post by swampman on Sept 21, 2010 20:25:16 GMT -5
The King James Bible, it's in every singe verse.
"Eternal torment is built on the sand of mistranslation, slipped easily upon saints who would like eternal torment to be true, if only to anoint themselves "divine messengers" on a "great commission
The following considerations are vitally important to your peace and understanding of God.
Our English word eon is derived from the Greek word aion. (Remember, the New Testament was originally written in Greek.) It even sounds like it and is nearly spelled the same. Obviously, it would be the perfect translation of aion. An eon is "a duration of time." So is an aion. (See W.E. Vine’s An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. Vine defines aion as "an age, era; signifies a period of indefinite duration, or time viewed in relation to what takes place in the period.") Had this word been left to speak for itself (the Concordant Version does that, putting "eon" for aion, always, and "eonian" for aionion, always), the false terror of eternal torment would never have arisen to deceive the saints and turn the world from God. Several versions do translate it consistently. (Besides the Concordant Literal New Testament, Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible, and Young’s Literal Translation.)
The ineptness of the orthodox translators can be easily verified. Look up the words "ages," "world," "eternal," "everlasting" and "forever" in either a Strong’s or a Young’s concordance. (These reference tools list every word in the King James Version and their source word from the original languages.) You will find that these words, a veritable hodge-podge, are all interpretations of this single Greek noun (aion) and its adjective.
Such interpretations are not only disparate, they are asinine. The same Greek word cannot mean ages in one place and forever in another. Ages have to do with time and plurality, while forever is the opposite of time and defies duplication."
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Post by ET on Sept 21, 2010 22:18:03 GMT -5
Swampman
You have still skirted around my asking of a verse/s of scripture to support your comments again.
Vine defines aion as "an age, era; signifies a period of indefinite duration, or time viewed in relation to what takes place in the period. What does: “signifies a period of indefinite duration”, mean to you?
The Bible teaches of God and tells of Heaven and Hell. He tells of the rewards in Heaven and consequences in Hell. Yes this is vitally important to me and others to know both. Also it is vitally important for me and others to know the narrow path to Heaven. Only through Christ. Here is our choice and any consequences for our choice. I see no threat here but just 2-options to choose from because it is a choice. And what I found interesting exploring the Bible is that even angles are given a choice to serve God or not to serve Him.
I don’t see a beneficial discussion here as you appear to be focused on translation errors and not the content of the Bible and what it reveals. You are entitled to express your comments and beliefs.
Ed
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Post by swampman on Sept 22, 2010 4:22:41 GMT -5
I'm entirely focues on the content of the Bible and what it reveals. It reveals that there are those with eyes that cannot see and ears that cannot here. We can only make our predestined choices. God hated Esau before he was born. God created hell and it isn't eternal. In order for something to be eternal it must have no begining nor end. That would be the elect. Tons of scripture to support what I'm saying. www.jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php
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Post by ET on Sept 22, 2010 8:58:13 GMT -5
I'm entirely focues on the content of the Bible and what it reveals. It reveals that there are those with eyes that cannot see and ears that cannot here. We can only make our predestined choices. God hated Esau before he was born. God created hell and it isn't eternal. In order for something to be eternal it must have no begining nor end. That would be the elect. Tons of scripture to support what I'm saying. www.jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.phpSwampman What I see here is another’s view and interpretation of the Bible. Are you blindly following him with what he tells you he believes? Anyone can change the meaning of statements by replacing word/s they feel is more appropriate to express what they believe it means to say. They can also simply say this is not what it means or implies because I don't believe.... This in effect can also alter the message or intent of statements to produce what they want it too say. This in turn no longer reflects what it originally intended too reveal because it has been compromised. The Bible does reflect who God is. He expresses love, anger and can’t tolerate sin. A question has to be asked here,” If His love is so great then why would His anger not also be so great? God’s love for us is so great He sacrificed His Son to atone for our sins. What reaction would you expect from God by not accepting and acknowledging this precious sacrificial gift He gave us? I would see God with an equal angry response and it is found in the Bible. God never chances and neither does His Word. Eternal is an interesting word. Would you also say Christ is not eternal because he had a beginning? For me the word eternal simply implies no ending. Now for “Predestined Choice”. Does this imply a choice is made before actually making it? Then it no longer is a choice if the outcome has been decided before hand. Unless you can add clarification this does not make sense to me. Ed
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Post by ozark on Sept 22, 2010 9:12:25 GMT -5
Swampman, your views appears to closely match those of Herbert W. Armstrong who started the world wide Church of God. Is there a connection? His teachings appear close to the position you seem to take. Thanks, please reply. Ben
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