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Post by boarhog on Jul 18, 2010 16:16:58 GMT -5
I had to work for a living a few hours Saturday, so it was almost 3:30 before I got to the JCGC range. A cold front had gone through Friday evening, and it was only 94° when I started shooting. Still plenty warm! Since I was getting such a late start, and my main goal was to determine if the new Vortex 6-24X50 was broken, I decided not to set up the chronograph. Vortex Scope Target #1- 200 gr XTP, 60 gr H-4198, Harvester Bl sabot. 2.5-3” group. This load has shot much better in the past than this. Target #2-200 gr XTP, 62 gr H-4198, Harvester Bl sabot. 4 shots into 2.5”. I reloaded for shot #5, and when I looked through the scope, the reticule was canted badly. The turrets still looked straight, so that settled the question of whether the Vortex is broken or not. I removed the Vortex, and rings so I could put the Weaver CE back on in the new Burris Signature rings. I had to use Extra High rings for the 56 mm objective bell to clear the barrel. The first shots with the “0” inserts were off to the right of the target frame. I used the +/-10 inserts in both front and rear in an effort to get the POI closer to POA. It is obvious that the bases are out of line somehow. Possibly the base mounting holes were mis-drilled by Savage. It took some 40+ left clicks, at 50 yds, to get sighted in. At this point, I moved the target back to 100 yds. Weaver CE scope Target #3- 200 gr XTP, 62 gr H-4198, Harvester Bl sabot,. 3 shots into 1”. Target #4- 200 gr XTP, 10/60 N-110/N-120, Harvester Bl sabot, 3 shots into just over 1”. Target #5- 180 gr Privi bullet sized and knurled, 10/60 N-110/N-120, Sabot less, 1 .60 veggie wad. 3 shots went into 2 3/8”. I tried 1 shot with a 250 gr Hornady FTX sized down to .449, then knurled with the fancy ET knurler, and sized again with a .454 Lee die. The actual final size was .4535, but that is still much too tight for the Pac-Nor barrel. I had to get the Railroad Hammer out of my truck to pound the bullet down. I have a .452 Lee die, but that is too small. I plan to polish it out until I get the perfect size for sabot less shooting. Monday, I plan to contact Vortex to see what can be done with this broken scope. Hopefully, I can trade up to a Viper model and pay a little boot money. I will report on how it all works out. Boarhog
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Post by Richard on Jul 18, 2010 16:27:17 GMT -5
Yup! ;D You got scope "issues!" Richard
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Post by rossman40 on Jul 19, 2010 16:33:19 GMT -5
There is a Scott and IIRC a Sam at Vortex CS, both good guys from what I hear. One guy thought if he called and told them he was a Vortex owner and he was out of gas in Wisconsin, they would bring him gas.
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Post by boarhog on Jul 19, 2010 16:52:46 GMT -5
Rossman! Pretty funny! I got on the Vortex www this morning. They say just send it back. They don't need a receipt or registration. I sure like that setup! I printed out, and filled out, their repair request form, packed the scope, and took it to the Post Office. The form had a place to explain what the problem is, and I took the opportunity to ask if the Crossfire will withstand Savage Smokeless recoil, and if not, could I pay the difference for an upgrade to the less expensive Viper 6-20X50? They are on sale for $399.00 right now. I could not afford the difference for the better Viper, unless they give me a super discount. Those things sell for over $800.00! This Crossfire seems very clear, and I think I could get by with it, as long as it will hold zero, and withstand the recoil. Guess I'll know in a week or so, what Vortex will do.
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Post by rossman40 on Jul 19, 2010 21:26:22 GMT -5
The reticle canting is a sure sign something is loose. Hopefully they will have you fixed up in about 2-3 weeks. The guy that sent his binos back had his new ones in 2 weeks.
The Vipers, from what I have been able to tell from the little time I have been behind them, have better glass then Leupold Mark4s and even Nightforce. And the Viper PSTs are supposed to be even better with all the tactical goodies like FFP reticle.
Now if you had money to burn the Vortex Razor is tough to beat. From what I have seen it is the second best tactical scope on the market. Yes the second best, I have seen perfection and it is called March. You can talk S&B, Premier Retical, USO, Zeiss and Swarovski. The Razor has them beat with glass as good or better and a better set of features. The March I laid my eyes on over the weekend while not having all the bells and whistles as far as features for a tactical scope had to have the best glass short of some KeyHole systems.
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Post by ET on Jul 19, 2010 22:10:24 GMT -5
Boarhog
I have a Vortex Viper, 3x9 40MM and just love it. When I read their original advertisement a while back it mentioned handling the recoil of muzzle-loaders. I have not had any issues with it and enjoy the feature of setting zero on my dial adjustments for a particular load. Cost me $400 and so far have no regrets whatsoever buying it. Also one heck of a warranty goes with it that clinched the sale.
Ed
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Post by boarhog on Jul 20, 2010 2:42:24 GMT -5
Those Razors should be purdy good for almost $2000.00! The Viper 6-24X50 FFP is almost $900.00. The cheaper Viper 6.5-20X50 PA is $499.00. That is about tops of what I can pay for now.
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Post by boarhog on Jul 27, 2010 20:47:43 GMT -5
To follow up on the Vortex Crossfire: Got a call today from Julie at Vortex Optics. She informed me that the scope is definitely bad, and that it can't be repaired. I had sent a note with the scope inquiring about the possibility of paying the difference to trade up to the Viper 6-20X50, that has a 30 mm tube. This scope retails for $600.00, but is on sale for a limited time at $499.00. She said she didn't think they had them right now, and I had a customer come in, so she said she would try to find the hidden stash they usually have, and for me to call her back when I had a chance. When I called an hour later, she said she found one she could send for $300.00, and also found a box of DEMO scopes they had on display somewhere. These are new scopes that have never been shot. Only mounted on fake rifles, and had the same warranty as the $300. one. The price was $150.00. I know a good deal when I see one! My final expense total is $350.00 for a scope that retails for $600.00, or on sale $500.00. It will ship tomorrow! Robert/Boarhog
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Post by rangeball on Jul 28, 2010 8:55:50 GMT -5
Sweet outcome Did they mention anything about the crossfires not being up to SML recoil?
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Post by bigmoose on Jul 28, 2010 11:58:46 GMT -5
If you need a scope to stand up to recoil, try to find an 8 or 9 year old Leupold VZ 111 model 45257 It will stand up to Elephant loads with plus 40 pounds of recoil. If you plan to shoot heavier loads, than your on your own...........SMILE
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Post by dougedwards on Jul 28, 2010 15:15:31 GMT -5
To follow up on the Vortex Crossfire: Got a call today from Julie at Vortex Optics. She informed me that the scope is definitely bad, and that it can't be repaired. I had sent a note with the scope inquiring about the possibility of paying the difference to trade up to the Viper 6-20X50, that has a 30 mm tube. This scope retails for $600.00, but is on sale for a limited time at $499.00. She said she didn't think they had them right now, and I had a customer come in, so she said she would try to find the hidden stash they usually have, and for me to call her back when I had a chance. When I called an hour later, she said she found one she could send for $300.00, and also found a box of DEMO scopes they had on display somewhere. These are new scopes that have never been shot. Only mounted on fake rifles, and had the same warranty as the $300. one. The price was $150.00. I know a good deal when I see one! My final expense total is $350.00 for a scope that retails for $600.00, or on sale $500.00. It will ship tomorrow! Robert/Boarhog Will offer $365 for the Viper
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Post by boarhog on Jul 28, 2010 18:08:33 GMT -5
The lady I talked to said she asked the chief technician about the Crossfire holding up to the Savage ML He said it should be plenty durable, and that they test them on heavy magnums. He told her that the way mine failed was unusual. They wouldn't put a lifetime warranty on them, if they really thought they wouldn't hold up. Guess time will tell. BH
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Post by Richard on Jul 28, 2010 18:39:27 GMT -5
Robert............Glad they did you right! Richard
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Post by boarhog on Jul 30, 2010 0:30:12 GMT -5
Tracking number says the new scope will arrive Friday, July 30th, my 64th birthday! I doubt I'll be able to shoot this weekend though. I have to work Sat and will be patching my store roof Sunday. On top of that, it will be over 100 all weekend.
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Post by rossman40 on Jul 30, 2010 8:13:12 GMT -5
I love it when a plan comes together! You might have been able to beat them up for maybe $50 more bucks off. But then again a $350 Viper is a deal in my book. And less then 2 week turn around is pretty good.
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Post by boarhog on Jul 30, 2010 16:08:08 GMT -5
Well Dirtydagnabbit! Got the scope today! But only one tiny problem,,,,, it isn't the scope I ordered!! They sent the cheaper model 6-20X44. I called Vortex again, and spoke to a lady named Julie. She apologized, and is sending a call tag via email, and is shipping the correct scope ASAP. The box was labeled as being the 50MM, so someone put the wrong scope in it. Julie said she will ask shipping to make certain things are correct this time.
Rossman, I noticed this Vortex says Made in the Philippines. What do you know about how that stacks up?
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Post by rossman40 on Jul 30, 2010 19:40:11 GMT -5
Same plant that the Nikons, some Bushnells and Burris Fullfields are made and I was told Bushnell is moving more models there. If you see any quality optics that says "Made in Philippines" it comes from one plant. From what I understand it was pretty low quality in the past (they even used to make the Weavers) and is now a joint venture between the company that has the Nikon License, Light Optical Works (LOW) and Kenko. They have dumped a ton of money into it upgrading it since they pushed the Philippinos out and the quality is to the point now where they have moved the Nikon Monarchs to that plant (the Monarch Gold and Monarch X are still made at LOW in Japan, at least for now). This gives them the chance to drop the price (or maybe not increase the price) on the Monarchs to cut some throats by coming in lower then Leupold VX-3s and Zeiss Conquest. Of course they tried making Monarchs in Thailand also.
From what I understand the glass comes from ether Japan, China or Ohara's operation in Malaysia depending on customer requirements. Kenko can handle polishing and coating on site. But most of the other parts come in from suppliers.
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Post by boarhog on Jul 30, 2010 23:10:44 GMT -5
Before I repacked this 44 mm scope, I took the opportunity to compare the clarity and sharpness against the Weaver Classic Extreme, Nikon Omega, and a Simmons 4-12X50. Honestly, it was pretty difficult to tell the difference. I expected brightness and clarity to jump out and be obvious, but I had to look pretty hard to see much. The Weaver was brighter, but I expected that with the 56mm obj lens and 30mm tube. Probably the main thing I noticed was that the Weaver was sharply focused all the way to the edge, and the Vortex was almost as good. I was surprised that the Simmons was better and brighter than the Omega. Perhaps I would have a different result if I were more educated about what to look for. I would also like to have a Ziess or other high $$$ scope to compare side by side.
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Post by rossman40 on Aug 1, 2010 12:54:54 GMT -5
For my informal testing/comparison the best target is the front page from a newspaper. With the different sizes of print you can look and see what the smallest print you can see clearly.
Another goodie I have used is a rainbow poster (the one I have is ether care-bear or my little pony). When light goes thru a lens or prism it tries to break the light down, or more correctly certain wavelengths take longer to travel thru the lens/prism, so the optics maker has to use different glass or coatings to compensate. You need good glass/coatings to fully compensate so it is a area to cut cost. If the rainbow isn't defined the you may also see less definition in colored objects. You will not notice it on a black and white benchrest target but trying to pick bambi out of the brush (or Luke the Gook in the jungle) can be tough. I was showed this using those color blind test boards where you have a circle of of different colors and you have to pick out the number in the middle. Try that with cheap optics.
A test target I use to have for distortion was a backer for pinstripping. Once the pinstripping was removed I basiclly had 1/4" lines on a 8"X72" sheet.
As far as distance, I was given the chance to tour one of the top hi-tech optics labs in the country (not too far from my house). Their small component test bench was only 6 feet long and their test targets were glass slides. The reason being you eliminated atmospheric variations and you can control lighting. If the component would not focus that close they would put a correction lens between the component and the target. I would do a lot of testing in the backyard at 25 feet to 50 yds.
Backyard testing doesn't produce repeatable data you can take to the bank, but for side by side comparison it works for me.
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Post by boarhog on Aug 1, 2010 15:01:03 GMT -5
All I had to look at were burglar bars on the store across the street from mine. I didn't even consider colors. I'll be on the lookout for some posters, etc to use.
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Post by rossman40 on Aug 3, 2010 11:40:29 GMT -5
Sometimes I'll go in to Gander Mountain and the guys will show my something new they have in. My test target is the sales ad/flyer that they have up by the front door. The color thing is even more of a problem in binos where they use big prisms. Look for a simple color wheel from the paint department at the hardware store, perferably with black lines between colors to help spot shift, You have to remember blue is on one end of the spectrum and red is on the other. You want to see accurate color rendition (same shade thru the optic as without) and it seems in focus. You could mug your local copier repair man to see if he has a chart like this, As far as resolution the newspaper is cheap but unless you use the same one, not very repeatable. Another cheap one is a eye chart (just stick it under your shirt when you leave the doctors office), just see what line of the smallest print you can read. Probly the standard of the industry is the 1951 Air Force test chart, Just look and see the smallest set where you can make out three lines instead of it looking like a sold block. I was at a shoot once and there was this Nightforce sales rep there preaching the finer points of NF optics. I just happen to have had a 1951 test chart in my gear and offered it for testing. The rep ripped on it saying it was almost 50 years old (at the time), out of date, obsolete and not suitable to use (at first I thought he might have been referring to me). Anyhow I walked away thinking he was a arrogant smart a$$ punk not worthy of a size 10 planted you know where. Last month I seen a article on the next generation of Mars rover NASA is getting ready to send. They said they were doing testing and guess what target they were using, Distance is not that important but the longer the range the more atmospheric/environmental variations come into play. Dust, humidity, smog and even mirage can throw you a curve. Although you want to know how the optic handles conditions like that you do not want it as part as your base testing. Most of my testing is done at 25yds or less. Sometimes just a small target board set up short at the range. That way it gives me a chance to compare other guys optics. Lighting is also a variable. When outdoors is it sunny or cloudy (and then how cloudy), morning sun or afternoon, even July sun or December. If indoors do you have the same amount of lighting, did you change florescent bulbs that have a different heat/light spectrum since the last test?
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Post by boarhog on Aug 3, 2010 17:04:14 GMT -5
I got the replacement replacement today. I'll try to gather up some stuff to try some testing.
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Post by deadon on Aug 3, 2010 19:08:42 GMT -5
Lookin forward to your post in the near future, Rusty
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Post by boarhog on Aug 3, 2010 20:22:48 GMT -5
It will need to cool off a tiny tad before I venture out. The Weather Babe said it could be as high as 106* the next 2 days and 100-103* the following several days. Saturday, my older Son and I, will be on my store roof early with the tar bucket and roll roofing, trying to dob and patch until I can afford some real roofing dudes. It may be a while before I get to shoot again.
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Post by deadon on Aug 4, 2010 1:23:30 GMT -5
It will need to cool off a tiny tad before I venture out. The Weather Babe said it could be as high as 106* the next 2 days and 100-103* the following several days. Saturday, my older Son and I, will be on my store roof early with the tar bucket and roll roofing, trying to dob and patch until I can afford some real roofing dudes. It may be a while before I get to shoot again. When S$#@ happens it happens, I feel for you Brother, Rusty
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Post by Jon on Aug 5, 2010 8:11:41 GMT -5
I'm very interersted in hearing more. I'm seriously thinking about the the viper 6.5-20-44 strictly for target work and would like to jump on it as long as they are on sale? Jon
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Post by boarhog on Aug 6, 2010 1:31:56 GMT -5
My only question about this big sale is, are these demo or discontinued models? The first 6-24X50 Crossfire they sent had a 1" tube, they said it was a disc model. The newer ver has a 30mm tube. There are lots of demo items, of every kind, floating around after the Shot Show.
Jon, I would suggest that you give the sale company a call. Ask if the scope you want has a 30mm tube( I have no idea which models do), or is a current model, with full warranty? If you get a knowledgeable sales person, you can probably get a feel for whether it is a good deal, or not. I've missed great deals by dragging my feet! Robert
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Post by deadon on Aug 6, 2010 2:26:33 GMT -5
If I remember correctly someone posted somewhere that a 6x20 x50 scope would only be good for bench work. I would like one for my 243. why would it not be good for hunting from 50 to 400 yrds? Thanks Rusty
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Post by Jon on Aug 6, 2010 6:56:08 GMT -5
Boarhog. I already got burned on that once off ebay. I may put in on my mini. Thanks for looking out I will double check. Jon
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Post by Dave W on Aug 6, 2010 12:27:53 GMT -5
If I remember correctly someone posted somewhere that a 6x20 x50 scope would only be good for bench work. I would like one for my 243. why would it not be good for hunting from 50 to 400 yrds? Thanks Rusty They are, at least for me they are. Takes some practice in acquiring targets at close range, but once you get the hang of it, makes a fine hunting scope. People who take shots at running deer or drive deer might not have much use for one.
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