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Post by barrycuda on Jan 14, 2009 14:15:23 GMT -5
My pac-nor .45 will be here soon. Should I wait to see what size die I will need by measurement or will I be OK ordering a .448 and/or a .449 from Lee? Also I see alot of 1 ton arbor presses on ebay for $50 or less. What do you think? Thanks
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Post by Harley on Jan 14, 2009 15:54:29 GMT -5
I'd bet on the .448 plus knurling. You can Google a company called Enco Tools for an arbor press just under $40 plus shipping; the ebay price sounds okay, too. Ordering a die now will reduce the otherwise 5-6 week lag time after you receive your rifle. Harley
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Post by craigf on Jan 14, 2009 16:52:07 GMT -5
What is the easiest way to use a Lee die with an arbor press?
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Post by Harley on Jan 14, 2009 17:54:36 GMT -5
Craig, I don't know the correct terminology, but the "ram" is magnetized. You just set the die in the opening of one of the revolving turrets and the plunger will "stick" to the ram. Lower the ram, the plunger pushes the bullet down through the die... and there you are.
Harley
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Post by craigf on Jan 14, 2009 18:20:55 GMT -5
Thanks!
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Post by nitro1947 on Jan 14, 2009 19:26:51 GMT -5
i use a 449 die and knurl ..works gr8 and less knurling.. barry.. hammer it thru die with hammer ...cheaper than a press and also..you have to use 451 bullets to get them thru 449 die..or get a 451 die also for 452
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Post by Harley on Jan 14, 2009 19:34:00 GMT -5
Nitro, I also have a .449 die, but don't use it. I've got this idea, just an idea, that the greater amount of knurling with the .448 yields more of a malleable surface to aid in obturation. Don't ask me to prove it. As far as less knurling, we are just talking about two or three rolls through the files no matter which die we use; and all in under one minute.
I guess it's one of those things: Do what works for you.
Harley
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Post by nitro1947 on Jan 14, 2009 19:37:01 GMT -5
i agree harley
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Post by Richard on Jan 14, 2009 19:48:36 GMT -5
Can someone give me the exact (Lee's number) number .448 die I should order form Lee? Thanks Richard
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Post by billc on Jan 14, 2009 20:13:47 GMT -5
Is it possible to use a top punch in the arbor press while resizing and make a more "pointy" bullet?
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Post by craigf on Jan 14, 2009 21:11:15 GMT -5
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Post by smokeeter on Jan 14, 2009 21:49:41 GMT -5
Nitro, I also have a .449 die, but don't use it. I've got this idea, just an idea, that the greater amount of knurling with the .448 yields more of a malleable surface to aid in obturation. Don't ask me to prove it. As far as less knurling, we are just talking about two or three rolls through the files no matter which die we use; and all in under one minute. I guess it's one of those things: Do what works for you. Harley Harley the more you knurl the harder the copper will become,since copper can be work hardened, I think it will make obturation more difficult. IMO
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Post by Harley on Jan 14, 2009 22:31:04 GMT -5
Smokeeter, I don't doubt that you're right, but we are still talking about a couple of passes through the files. I can't see that work hardening the jacket. The only difference between knurling following a .448 vs .449 re-size is that you bear down a little harder on the file. I'm not really arguing since I don't know; but I do know it works very well for me.
Harley
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Post by Harley on Jan 14, 2009 22:39:04 GMT -5
Richard, is that YOU with the new avatar?
BTW, you can just send Lee a check along with a description of what you want to buy. The address is on the web site. "I want one .448" Lube and Size Kit. I am enclosing a check for $25 plus $4 S&H." Then wait 5-6 weeks, not the four weeks on the web site.
Harley
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Post by smokeeter on Jan 14, 2009 22:52:04 GMT -5
No argument here, just an observation it may work well for you Harley , but if you are trying to bring a bullet that is undersized up to bore by multiple passes over the files it is going to make the copper harder than only one pass over the files with a bullet that is slightly undersized, I have experinced this with how the bullet expands after hitting the target.
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Post by Harley on Jan 15, 2009 10:28:20 GMT -5
Smokeeter, when you say "I have experienced this with how the bullet expands after hitting the target" I'm guessing you mean that the harder copper doesn't expand as much or as well as a less worked copper. I'm including pictures of a .448" re-sized, then knurled 275 Parker BE recovered from a deer kill at 341 yards. It retained 214 grains (78%), but looks nicely expanded. Again, I don't doubt your argument, but it's hard to fault my own real world results, either. Harley
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lc
Forkhorn
Posts: 72
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Post by lc on Jan 15, 2009 11:49:06 GMT -5
The question is. Is there more copper build-up with the .448 knurled or the .449 less knurled in the barrel ?
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Post by Harley on Jan 15, 2009 12:54:21 GMT -5
Clean your barrel after a reasonable number of shots and don't worry about it. We're getting too involved in too little, here.
Harley
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Post by barrycuda on Jan 15, 2009 13:32:08 GMT -5
Thanks guys. With all this being said, should I order the .448 or .449 or both? I was hoping one would do.
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Post by Dave W on Jan 15, 2009 13:40:41 GMT -5
If your barrel is close to .450 land to land, then I would go with a .448. .452 jacketed bullets come out of my .4486 die just a tad smaller than the Parker BE's, they need a very light knurl to give resistance on par with an unsized BE. The Pac Nors seem to be a little tighter than my Shilen for the most part so a .449 might be a waste of money, but it all depends on your bore size.
Barnes all coppers do not spring back as much as jacketed bullets so a .449 might work with those, but you might be throwing money away.
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Post by craigf on Jan 15, 2009 18:02:31 GMT -5
Why not just get a .448 and if it is to small, just lap it out a little?
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Post by nitro1947 on Jan 15, 2009 18:13:41 GMT -5
Looks as if they both work heck ..just get a 448.5 and should be fine
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Post by Harley on Jan 15, 2009 18:56:03 GMT -5
Craig, I did lap a .449 for fit and it did work. At least, I got no misfires; but, I couldn't come close to the small group size that I could obtain by resizing with the .448, then knurling. Case closed for me. Knurling wins. Of course, a craftsman could possibly have done a better/closer lapping job and equaled the knurling.
Nitro, you're right, "just get a.....", but it's like a box of chocolates, you don't know where that fourth decimal place will end up till you bite into it.
Harley
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Post by Richard on Jan 15, 2009 20:52:34 GMT -5
Dave W........are you saying that I can resize a .452 bullet in a .448 die? Just curious or should I get a .450 die and run them thru first? Harley...Yes, I put on a new Avatar Love my dogs! Craig.........Thanks for the info. Richard
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Post by Dave W on Jan 15, 2009 22:21:58 GMT -5
Dave W........are you saying that I can resize a .452 bullet in a .448 die? Just curious or should I get a .450 die and run them thru first? Harley...Yes, I put on a new Avatar Love my dogs! Craig.........Thanks for the info. Richard Rich, I have sized approximately 200 .451-.452 bullets in my .4486 die with a Rockchucker press. I don't consider the force overly hard, I do lube the bullets pretty well though. As long as I go in one fluid slow motion, I think it is fairly easy. The Barnes TEZ's were the toughest IMO. Stepping from .452 to .450 and then down to .448 would probably be easier and might stress the bullet jacket less. Would it be an advantage in accuracy, I don't know.
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Post by joe21a on Jan 16, 2009 10:04:25 GMT -5
Billc : I did what you asked about. Made a custom sized sizing die then made a top punch to add a better shaped point to the bullet. I did the work in the arbor press (1 Ton) and it did the job. I did not see a real benefit in the way the bullets worked so I have not used it in a while.
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 16, 2009 10:17:02 GMT -5
What no one has mentioned is when using an Arbor press you have to protect the nose of the bullet, I do this by taking two half inch nuts, epoxy them together, set the die on top of them and press. works great I thing you will find, some jacketed bullet are very tough to resize, they spring back, no matter how many times you run them thur the die, all cooper bullets are the easiest to resize. If I was getting started, I would contact Smokeeter or Edge, they are the grandmasters of bullet sizing
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Post by Harley on Jan 16, 2009 10:32:26 GMT -5
I'm confused, Bigmoose; why do you have to protect the bullet nose? I drop the bullet nose down into the sizing die; the resized bullet drops into a foam-lined cup I attached to a cut-out beneath my arbor press.
Harley
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 16, 2009 10:47:35 GMT -5
Harley, The answer is you are smarter than me, I bolted the Arbor press to a bench, no room under press.
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Post by Harley on Jan 16, 2009 10:53:17 GMT -5
Bigmoose, I'm no smarter than you; I also bolted my press to the bench. After "losing" resized bullets under the press I unbolted it and cut out a hole beneath, then affixed a container below the hole.
Harley
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