just to make us think

[whyohe]

we have had some posts recently that haved made me do some research and reading in the Bible, a good thing. so here i post this question NOT to be contriversial but to make us think and to some reading and thinking.

if all good people go to heaven and bad go to hell then what is the earth for? in Genesis Adam and Eve were only going to die IF they ate from the tree of knowledge. so did God put this there knowing they were going to sin? if that is the case then He knew we where going to die? If this is not the case, then God wanted us to live forever here on earth then origionally. did this change his plan?

I have my beliefs but id like to hear yours. I hope this causes some to break out you Bible and do some searching.

[ET]

Whyohe

Good questions.
But how are you distinguishing good and bad people when the bible classifies us as all being sinners?
Salvation can only be attained through Gods Grace by acknowledging and accepting Christ who paid the ultimate price for our sins. By accepting Christ your response is then following his teachings. Because we are not perfect there will be times we stumble with following these teachings but Christ paid for these transgressions. By confessing and repenting of our sins committed Christ’s blood washes us clean again. But Gods Grace is not a free ticket to purposely commit sins with the expectation of being easily forgiven.

As to the purpose of Adam and Eve’s journey with God being separated by eating the fruit of knowledge I don’t have an answer here as to why it was allowed to happen. An all knowing God knew this would happen once man was given the freedom of choice of choosing the direction for his life. Through faith I can only accept this as part of his perfect plan for mankind.
But one thing that stands out for me is that Adam and Eve were in a manner separate from God to begin with. Then when Christ appeared to atone for our sins He left behind the Comforter, The Holy Spirit to dwell amongst and within us when we accept Christ. That gap of separation from God is now removed for those that believe and accept Christ.
But the freedom of choice for the direction of your life is still there for the path it takes.
You decide which path it will follow through out your lifetime on earth and there will be an accountability of judgment. Whether you stand alone or Christ stands beside you claiming you as His Child before the Father.

Ed

[12ptdroptine]

I believe when god created us he gave us the knowledge to know the difference from good and evil............He also gives us the ability to make that choice, As he did with Adam and Eve. They made the choice to dis-obey the lord. Therefore was that the first sin? I don't think its just good or bad people who are offered life everlasting. Through the gates of heaven only through me Rings a bell somewhere in my mind...........I have many thoughts in this area.However I don't know how to put them all in words to convey my feeling's.I believe one should share the word of God through their personal experience to all they come in contact with. There will always be naysayers. And I don't push my belief onto those who let me know of their discomfort with it. But I refresh with the question generated from a comment I made ... Do you know the lord? Ot...Are you a Christian? And I love to share my experience with those. Thank You and may you walk with God today. Drop

[ozark]

Since man was made in Gods image he was given the right to choose the paths he would take. God had no restrictions on what He could do. He could destroy thousands and it was no sin. He could do whatever he wished and there was no Judge above him. What He did was accpetable simply because it was His decision. That made everything He did right. Man came along with restrictions attached. Man was supposed to do things pleasing to God or be punished in some manner. The playing field between God and man was never level. We must please God and He has no obligation to please us. If we succeed in Pleasing God then we have promise of a reward. That is the nutshell situation.
Many rebel against this set up because they believe in democracy. With God it is a dictatorship with Him calling all the shots. Many are brought into obedience because of the threat of Hell and being forever suffering in a lake of fire. This as everlasting punishment because you were wrongly influenced by Gods outcast Angel, The Devil.

[whyohe]

ET, first i make no judgement of any man. that is not my position in life. you are right we are all sinners and need Jesus sacrifice to just be in GODs graces. I wholly agree with you it is not a free ride cause of His sacrifice.

12pt and Ozark i agree with you. we where created in his image and givin the ability to make choices in our lives and that was a good thing. when your child does something that pleases you cause he wants to and not because he has to does it not mean SO much more. I feel that is why God made us that way. so we can choose to serve him and try to do what is right. If Adam and Eve chose not to eat of the tree where would we be now and what that would have meant to GOD.

Now I beleave GOD made man to live on earth forever in that paradise condition. It was the choise of Adam and Eve to dis obey that we lost that. I have a hard time beleaving in Hell. I dont beleave that such a loving GOD who would send his son to earth to suffer and die for us would torcher "bad" people for ever. I beleave that GOD intended us to live here on Earth and that didnt change. I beleave that only a few will go to heaven to serve with Jesus.

I'm not condeming any one for their beliefs and do not mean to offend any one. there are things that others belive that confuse me just as my beliefs may confuse others. As i have stated before I am not one to judge anyone. that is not for me to do that is for GOD and Jesus to do. I view all of you as friends and enjoy the stimulating conversation and discussion.

[huntingmike]

Apr 17, 2010 6:43:53 GMT -5 whyohe said:

we have had some posts recently that haved made me do some research and reading in the Bible, a good thing. so here i post this question NOT to be contriversial but to make us think and to some reading and thinking.

if all good people go to heaven and bad go to hell then what is the earth for? in Genesis Adam and Eve were only going to die IF they ate from the tree of knowledge. so did God put this there knowing they were going to sin? if that is the case then He knew we where going to die? If this is not the case, then God wanted us to live forever here on earth then origionally. did this change his plan?

I have my beliefs but id like to hear yours. I hope this causes some to break out you Bible and do some searching.

I want to say that the creator knows all things from beginning to the end. The King James 16 :11 version of scripture Genesis 1:1 talks of creation . It goes on to say that all things were made in six days and on the seventh he rested. After each day of creation He declared every day good except for the second day. The second day is when he divided Heaven from the earth. I will suggest the reason this day was not declared good was because of the cost it would require to reconcile earth to heaven. He knowing man would sin and that Jesus who is called the LAMB WHO WAS SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD WOULD PAY THE ULTIMATE PRICE OF BEING CRUCIFIED AND BECOMING SIN AND BEING SEPARATED FROM GOD that we who would believe would be made in right standing with God. That we who were yet enemies of righteousness could be made righteous through the finished work of Calvary. Glory Be to The Almighty God who knows the end from the beginning. Man's sin did not change God's plan. It is the Love of God that He made man in spite of what He knew would be the cost of reconciliation.
Rev. Mike

[wilmsmeyer]

To reply to Ozarks post:

I ask myself, in the light of Ozarks statements, why, if there is a God, would he create mankind? What service do they provide to him? If he can do anything he wants, make anything he wants, alter anything he wants...why make mankind. And then, why would he....what is the purpose....to tempt them to be "good" or "bad"?

And the idea of an almighty creator to me is like trying to understand or define infinity....or time and space. We imagine someone or something that created everything....but where did they get everything from...and where did that creator come from? What was the purpose of creating anything at all.

I know that there is no clear answers to anything I've asked but I appreciate the opinions and assumptions of others who have unique perspectives. I usually get no benefit from a passage derived directly from the bible.....I've seen people with the same basic beliefs twist a passage to mean exactly the opposite of what the other person sees. That's confusing to me.

So to que off of what Whyohe's post is titled....just to make us think.....what do you think?

Many will take my question and make an assumption of my beliefs which I never fully share here. That's OK. I always like a great discussion rooted with thoughtfulness.

[ozark]

Wilms, mankind has never been able to accept that they live until they die and after that it is over. The body rots and that is the end. For this inability to accept death as the end result mankind have created many religions and writings attempting to give hope that there is something more to it. All these religions have a purpose of offering hope that after death there is some means of life going on into the future or eternity. As far as we can actually prove, the facts are that we die, the body rots and its over. Life ends with death and that is the whole ball of wax.
But, this is hard to accept because we are a thinking, feeling, emotional animal. We feel that our life must have more meaning to it than just what is experienced here on earth. That is why there are upward of 3,000 different religions. All these religions wants others to believe as they believe. They feel more secure if there are large numbers believing the same way. Like: How can a group of 10,000 be wrong? Like yourself Wilms, I have not declared my own opinion or beliefs here. I have merely attempted to point out why mankind has a need to plan for the future. He needs to plan for the winter months to prevent suffering the cold and its dangers. Likewise, He feels a need to plan for the after death existence to avoid any suffering that might be waiting. In this light the question is: Did God create man or has mankind created a God to avoid accepting what we observe in the flesh as humans?

[whyohe]

Wilms there is no clear cut answer. it is all in faith. I look a our human body and tha ability to procreate and ask my self can this happen by accident? IMO no, not when you look at all other creation and how alot of it works together to love such as the bees and flowers. as to why he created us??? I dont really think we can understand cause our minds are not on that level. I look at it as how i feel when i make samething and it works to my expectations and beyond and how elated it makes me feel. I can only think that he MAY HAVE thought the same way and the dissapointment he must have felt when it didnt go the way HE intended.

GOD created us to be able to think on our own and not be robots and do as programmed. I allways thoght of it as an example to show to the angels and others that HIS cretion would serve him of their own FREE will. just as thoes of you that have children how does it make you feel when your children do some thing for you of there own free will for you just to make you happy. and threw out the bible there are man example of thoes that have and thoes that havent.

the bible is a owners manual for humans IMO it shows us what GOD expects of us but also gives examples of what happens when you dont( the warning lable) but what happens when you follow his laws and the example of thoes that have followed HIS laws what the end result can be.

I dont know if this made things more confusing or not just my beleifs and if you like i can and will look up scripture to quote to help. this is the type of disscussion i enjoy. I wont condem any one for thier beliefs even IF i disagree. it is your right to have thoes beliefs. we are imperfect humans and the bible can be very hard to ubderstand and even seem to contradict itself. that is why we need to look and study it.

[ozark]

Whyohe, Each of the many religions have a owners manuel or book to explain their position. To the Christian it is the bible. But, Christians are a small minority when we consider the whole population of the world. Others have their owners manuel and all these manuels are designed to fit a particular religion. Each one tends to prove their own beliefs. But they don't all agree by any means. So, for those without any religion cannot know which is right, which is fake or which book to believe. To all those looking for a religion that offers existance after death are like looking at a thousand roads leading from where they stand to somewhere. If only one leads to the destination that is desired, the choice is a most difficult one when you cant see where any road leads. Unless there is a spiritual guidance that can deal directly to our inner senses, then where we end up is a random game of chance.

[ET]

Wilmsmeyer

To start with God does not tempt people, Satan does. And now you can ask who created Satan? But here only the Bible can provide an answer.

If you take out the Bible for reference then you have no discussion about God but mankind’s simple reasoning and limited understanding. Basically you have altered this discussion because Whyohe did start this discussion with referencing what he read in the Bible.

The real underlying questions here are “What is the purpose of my existence at this point in time here on this earth?”
How did everything come into existence?

No matter what answers you surmise through reasoning you still have to have a belief for it or it means nothing.

For what it’s worth my belief/faith has already been solidified in Christ.


Whyohe

My previous post did not imply any judgment on your part but was looking for how you identified or separated people into 2 groups. The word distinguish was purposely used for that reason. I apologize if it lead you to believe otherwise as this was not my intent.



Ed

[dougedwards]

Good honest post Wilms.........I had a co-worker ask me a question in a very confrontational manner. His question was "If it was God that created everything, then where did God come from?"
My response was that God is eternal and was not created by anything and that all things proceed from Him.

Of course this guy could not accept that explainatin because the explaination offers nothing that can appeal to our sense of reason. Within our humanity we can only accept that which we can relate within our understanding. However this same man came to me some weeks later to explain that neither could he understand an end to the universe.

"I can't imagine how the universe can go on endlessly without some sort of a door to stop it. But then, isn't there always something on the other side of a door? Where does that end?

God has given us five senses with which we detect the world and even ourselves. We survive through the use of these senses. But isn't it a bit arrogant of us to assume that anything that we can't reasonably detect does not exist?

An old Greek axiom goes "The absence of evidence is the evidence of absence."

Just something to make us think.

Doug

[dougedwards]

A colony of red ants stood on a mound of ground and the lead ant suggested that this would be a great place make their home place. The ground is high and dry but still substantial enough to maintain our burrowed holes. Just enough sand and just enough clay to make the perfect dwelling place the ant said. All of the other ants agreed.

However these ants evidently had physical limitations which prevented them from seeing all that there was to see on this subject. A bulldozer was sitting only twenty yards away as this site had been chosen for a new mall to be constructed. Within days all of the ants hopes and dreams would be obliterated.

Is there some existing reality that transends our recognition? is there really some unforeseen purpose in life other than to exist unit we die?

Just things to make us think.

Doug

[whyohe]

ozark you are right. i hope i didn't offend any one by stating it that way, was not my intent.

ET. I see what you where looking for. I can only judge a persons action as being good or bad by the guide lines taught to me in the bible and ( i hate to say it like this) but also by what i feel is good and bad in my heart. most people can tell good and bad actions naturally. we know it is not right to steal and such with out laws being put in effect to re-enforce it.

I feel most people here are good because of the way they treat each other and show respect to each other and their willing ness to help complete strangers.

dougwards, excellent story. that is hard for us to understand because every thing we see has a beginning and an end. we have a hard time contemplating infinity. we cannot see an end to the universe but we have no evidence that it end or goes on to infinity. we cacn see stars start and stars end. we see an end to our solar system and even to our own galixy. we have become a people of needing eveidence and not just faith.

[petev]

First, I want to say that this appears to be not only an interesting discussion, but a very respectful and open-minded one toward other points of view. Moving along, it almost seems like the Bible paints the Earth as a proving ground, where up until the second coming of Christ, people will either gain belief in Christ and God the father, or will decide against it, and when Christ comes again, he will judge and seperate the two. There are apparent contradictions in Christianity- if God is all-powerful, then why didn't he just get rid of the Devil once and for all? If He is kind, why does he allow some people to suffer at the hands of others? Now, the Bible talks of the coming of the end of the world, but also states the meek will inherit the Earth. For those who want mores specific answers, like does the world have a beginning and an end, I would point out that science is also confronted by such questions, that most people would probably find counter-intuitive. For example, it is believed by physicists that the universe began as a small amount of matter, let's say a few cubic yards, and then it just kept expanding, and as conditions changed, more complex elements formed out of basic hydrogen and helium. Maybe they call it a black hole, I don't know. To end, I do find that by reading the Bible, more and more of these questions are explained and make sense. Take for example when the Devil tempted Jesus 3 times. Someone could reasonably ask- why didn't Jesus just tell the Devil to get lost, why did he let the Devil put him high on a pinnacle? Then, the story explains how Jesus wanted the Devil to know that in refusing his help, that he would take the hard road, because it was his Father's, as he did on the cross, after predicting his own death again and again. The consistency in the Bible is one of things that I like about it best. My purpose here was both to stir up some more ideas, and to offer some possible explanations. Who's next?

[dougedwards]

It is obvious that Jesus did everything for a divine reason. According to the gospels Jesus was tempted by Satan directly after he was baptised and then retreated into the wilderness to fast for 40 days. At the baptism of Jesus God spoke in an audible voice proclaiming that Jesus was His son and that He was well pleased with him.

Satan approached Jesus at the end of His 40-day fast and found Jesus to be in a physically drained state of being. Satan begins his sly attack of Jesus with this question:

IF you are the son of God then you will turn these stones into bread so that you can eat them.
Notice that Satan began his question with the word "IF" Didn't God just proclaim only 40 days earlier that Jesus was, in fact, the Son of God??

Jesus would not enter into an arguement with Satan but would only substatiate that God's word is true and dependable by responding to each approach of the Devil with "it is written". Is there something that we can learn from this?

Jesus was called the second Adam in that He came to release us from the curse of rebellion and sin that the act of the Garden had bestowed upon all of humanity. Remember that Adam and Eve had also been approached by Satan but they chose to engage in a conversation with the Evil One. Satan began his approach to Eve in this way:

Did God really say that you can't eat of the trees in the Garden?

Of course Satan knew that God didn't say that but was planting a seed of doubt and confusion in the minds of the two people God had appointed as rulers over all of the earth. Eve chose to engage into a conversation with the Evil One instead of substatiating the Word that their Almighty Creator had given them.

Yes the scriptures have endured through the centuries and give us a blue print for living. Jesus described a difference between men who would hear, accept and believe and those who demanded a sign. There are sheep and there are goats. There is wheat and there is weeds. Jesus said "My sheep hear and know my voice". He who has ears let him hear.

[Douglas]

I believe that Jesus knew that man-kind would be tempted, so that is why he made an escape for our temptations, that's why He told us to choose this day who we would serve, We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God, But we have a merciful God, that's why He gave his only son to die for us, so that we could all escape the snares of the devil, Jesus was tempted by the devil, and we are none as good as He is, but in the name of Jesus the devil has to flee, the devil knows he don't have much time left, and he would love to take us all to hell with him, after all he was kicked out of Heaven, God has left us a roadmap to heaven and as long as we read and study our Bible and do our best to live a good life pleasing to the Lord, then we are promised a home in Heaven when this life is over,

[basspastor]

At first the question was asked " what is earth for"
"It is a holding cell" I apolpgize; I just felt like a little humor tonight.
Not going to make any more comments on this subject.

[ozark]

basspastor, who asked what is the earth for? Your post has me shaking my head wondering where I lost iwhat little was in it. I see no humor or substance. If it is meant to baffle people like me you succeeded. Ozark

[huntingmike]

Apr 20, 2010 20:41:22 GMT -5 ozark said:

basspastor, who asked what is the earth for? Your post has me shaking my head wondering where I lost iwhat little was in it. I see no humor or substance. If it is meant to baffle people like me you succeeded. Ozark

Ozark,
I will answer you. The question: " What is the earth for?" was asked in the original post by whyohe, second paragraph line 1.

Rev. Mike

[deadon]

Bass, And what a wonderful holding cell it is and when we get sprung ;D ;D ;D

[wilmsmeyer]

Apr 18, 2010 9:03:13 GMT -5 ozark said:

Whyohe, Each of the many religions have a owners manuel or book to explain their position. To the Christian it is the bible. But, Christians are a small minority when we consider the whole population of the world. Others have their owners manuel and all these manuels are designed to fit a particular religion. Each one tends to prove their own beliefs. But they don't all agree by any means. So, for those without any religion cannot know which is right, which is fake or which book to believe. To all those looking for a religion that offers existance after death are like looking at a thousand roads leading from where they stand to somewhere. If only one leads to the destination that is desired, the choice is a most difficult one when you cant see where any road leads. Unless there is a spiritual guidance that can deal directly to our inner senses, then where we end up is a random game of chance.

What a profound thought. Well said.

Many here on this thread have made huge assumptions and began post with phrases like..."It's obvious that...." or "God created us to...." or references the bible as if it were the tell all end all answer. That's why I made the comment that I put little weight in passages that some lean on as literal facts.

It goes to Ozarks point of those folks taking a stand...traveling down a path....with the faith that they are right and others are wrong.....or have not seen the light..... Buddhists, Muslims, Hindu's etc etc. must be completely wrong. For some people it is clear...to them. To others, the struggle to weight evolution and science against faith alone is a struggle. And when we decide on faith, what separates the bible from other "bibles"??....all written by humans interpreting history. A disagreement that over time has ended in more killings, murders and hate crimes then the Nazi party ever committed. People killing in the name of religion. Christians, historically, are not immune as culprits. Does anybodies "God" condone this? Or is this a mis-interpretation of someones "God"

A very interesting topic to say the least. None of us can know until we expire and if faith makes our existance on earth a happier, fruitful one, I find not one thing wrong with it....as long as that person doesn't criticize a different point of view. If on the other hand, one questions religion, I find nothing wrong with that either. Any god or higher being that created such intelligence put the ability to do so within our minds.

In the event we question, ponder and never fully commit....yet lead a very noble life of helping others, contributing to society in positive ways....I find it hard for a "creator" with good intentions to condemn us to eternal suffering for using the powers given to us to make our own judgments. If that's what he or she would do, I will take the suffering. A creator that created for the sake of creating....for the sake of manipulating its' creation...has done nothing but created a game which puts the created in a pickle of doubt, frustration and undue confusion.

The discussion here is endless but enjoyable to see different perspectives. It's is surely a monumental look into the human capacity to think, feel and reason.

[dougedwards]

Ahhhh......now this is good stuff! The title of "Just to make you think" is appropriate. Typically such honest and forthcoming dialogue digresses into antagonistic confrontation. I have been visiting this board for over 4 years and somehow I don't think this discussion will go that way but sometimes when a man's religious faith is questioned that man can become threatened and defensive. It is refreshing to see the comments made by Wilms here on the Christian board. Let the exchange of thoughts begin but as a follower of Christ I must constantly be asking myself a question. "What would Jesus do?"

Doug

[huntingmike]

There are many religions in the world. My faith started out as Baptist because that was how I was raised as a child. I had an experience with the The Lord though that was life changing as a teenager when I asked him to become my savior when I realized religion a lone was not enough. 13 years ago I received a supernatural in filling of THE HOLY SPIRIT that changed my life and direction. At 54 I no longer walk by faith a lone but with an evidence of power. I have seen miracles and manifestations of the power of God. I do not try to convince those who do not believe it. I am told to preach the word it us up to The Holy Spirit to draw to God. I only state the things I have seen and experienced.

I do not have to wait to see the reality of God as some have stated. I have seen it with my own eyes. This earth is a place for the mercy of God as He allows mankind a life time to find the truth of His love through his son. Even a man that we would call evil can repent and be saved on his death bed. (It has happened that way before.) Great Mercy!

I submit that religion is what man does for God. Salvation and son ship is what God does for man.

Believe or not I am not anyone's judge. I will say that I am glad my preaching is not in vain as many thousand have come forward to call on the name of The Lord Jesus.

Just to make us think,
Rev. Mike

[ozark]

I have been reading, writing and waiting for someone to turn this discussion into a cesspool of critical accusations. Wilmsmeyer indicated that our minds were for us to reason and use. I think it is as much a creation as any other part of our makeup. It is the mind that makes us consider a course or position to take. Becoming a Democrat, Republican or an Independent politically is a position taken because the mind agrees more in a particular direction. If you go to church and listen to a preacher the mind weighs his teaching against its own reasoning and logic. If what is heard makes sense and appears more logical than anything else we have heard or read then we tend to accept it as worthwhile.
For those who accepts a particular position on faith and develops a belief that their faith is going to bring forth a desired hope, they naturally will seek assurance and support. Those of like minds will band together and become a gathering. They will be given a name and separated from those of a different understanding.
I personally believe in the freedom of religion along with the freedom to have no religion. I have my own position, understanding and experiences in this area and from those my mind is formed. I am very appreciative that this thread has remained on a higher level rather than fall into the normal pit of argument and demeaning remarks. Thanks to all. Ozark

[wilmsmeyer]

We will all take our own stance here. You are all decent folks so any stance is OK by me. I have my own beliefs that get me thru the days and I absolutely don't feel the need to push them on anyone else.

It's a great forum, the Christian forum, for folks to discuss their beliefs out loud. This is the place to do it. However you feel, think or believe.....the outcome will play out beyond any of our personal thoughts. We'll either be dirt or float in eternal bliss or burn in eternal hell.

I never preach to know about such higher things because I don't. Just like you don't. YOU make your own decisioins....we are allowed that. Be good...treat others well....contribute positively to your family and mankind....and don't let your mind stagnate. The mind should wander and ponder. It's "natural"

[ozark]

In my lifetime I have heard what I estimate to be over a thousand testimonials. Many about salvation or conversion. Many about a personal experience with God through the Holy Spirit. From these it appears that no two are the same and that each person experiencing this puts it on an individual basis. From hearing testimonials from others I conclude that each conversion is different and very individualized. Regarding this subject, are testimonials describing personal conversion or callings helpful? Helpful to furthering Christian beliefs, I mean? Yes, just to make us think.

[whyohe]

I too am glad that it has been a good discussion. this thread has gone the way i wished it would. a friendly discussion of faith and beliefs. Wilms you said it very well and i doubt many could have put it better. the whole point was to make thoes that wish to to look back into the Bible . it sure had me doing it.

[dougedwards]

A young girl named Alice found herself in a place called Wonderland. In an attempt to find her way out of this strange place she began walking down a road until the road diverged into two paths where sat a Cheshire Cat. Alice made an inquiry of this cat.

Alice: Mr Cheshire Cat, which way should I go now?

Cheshire Cat: That depends. Where are you going?

Alice: Well, I don’t know.

Cheshire Cat: Then I guess it doesn’t matter which road that you pick.

For the first 42 years of my life I walked the path that the world had laid before me. I went to college, got a job, got married, bought a house, had children all the while thinking that this road would lead to peace and fulfillment. I approached all things through a process as I was taught by mentors and professors. I thought that only through rationale and reason could anyone really know anything. Every other method would only lead to mere speculation. As I entertained the thought of a personal God I surmised that not only did I not know if He existed but came to the conclusion that I CANNOT know. There simply did not seem to be enough empirical evidence with which to come to a viable conclusion about God, although the undisputed fact that DNA, even in the most primitive and simplest of organisms was more complex than anything that man had ever devised, did cause me to pause and think about the issue. Nonetheless I was an avowed agnostic who would proceed through life judging all things through a rational and logical prism.

The Christian people that I knew were not much different than I except that they may speak a type of Christianese to each other and attended church services. For the most part they seemed to have their treasures in the exact same place as most people but would approach their desires in a more hypocritical and deceptive way. Maybe they needed to believe in something to give them some hope for life. That was good for them. I really needed no part of it.

I was coaxed by my beloved aunt to attend a “religious event’ where I was exposed to a divine love of some devoted Christian brothers. It was at this point that I came to realize that there was more to this life than my little five senses could detect. I came to an awareness of to Whom I really belonged and surrendered to the Spirit of Truth that guides my life to this day. This same Spirit began to influence my whole approach to life and I began to develop a compassion for people that was absent in my consciousness before. I began to pray that God would forgive me of my sins as I forgave those who had hurt me including family members. This path was much more complicated and involved because it seemed to lead me places that would be completely contrary to my human nature.

Pontius Pilate said to Jesus: So you are a king then?

Jesus answered: You are right in saying that I am a king. In fact it was for this reason that I was born, to testify to the Truth. Everyone on the side of Truth hears my voice. John 18:37

Jesus always responded to the prideful and arrogant with the law (there is none who have kept the law, no not one) and to the humble He responded with grace. If any man will humble himself before God in an attempt to know Him, God is faithful and dependable to reveal himself to that person. But to those who demand a sign (empirical evidence of truth through the use of sight, sound, touch, smell or hearing to come to rational and logical conclusions) God will remain silent to that man and that man will never know spiritual truth.

Broad is the way that leads to destruction . Narrow is the path that leads to life and there are few who will find it.

We all get to choose the path that we should walk. But it helps to know where we would like to go before we choose the path.

Doug

[ozark]

All that I believe about all subjects are things developed within my mind. I have believed people and later learned they were lying. I guess you could say with them I had a trust and a faith that they were truthful. All I know has been filtered through the process of my logic. What I read is understood or misunderstood through my mental capacity. I do question things because failure to question what we read or hear is a dangerous way to go. Many, if not most, Christian believers read the Bible and try to understand God by what is written. If God is as He is described in the Bible why do we need the Bible? Can He not deal directly with us without us having to separate the facts from parables in the Bible? Obviously, if He could inspire St. Paul and others of old, He can do so today. I think it is a fact that well meaning people understands the Bible differently and therefore develop their own understandings. People believe they are right with God because they are convinced by their minds. What we think is the right way in our own minds . That may be right or questionable. I fear being deceived and question it all. Did God create me to be this way or is it something my mind has cultivated? I admit I do not know it all or believe those who say they do. Ozark.
PS: Permit me to offer some humor: Moses led the Children of Israel out of Egypt. What about the grown ups? A small boy in Sunday School heard the teacher say that Job cursed the day he was born. "My brother Joe is nearly six months old and he can't talk. He sure can't curse."