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Post by lunchbox on Jan 31, 2010 21:16:01 GMT -5
I want to have some rifles made that will be very accurate. Lets call it sniper accurate. What would I have to do? Do I need all of my stocks bedded and after market and completely new barrels and triggers? Or would it be just as easy to have someone build me one the way I want it? I want to be able to shoot 1/4" groups with any gun I have built this way.
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Post by rossman40 on Jan 31, 2010 23:21:21 GMT -5
The barrel is the heart of the system and with the major manufacturers your kinda rolling the dice. Use to be if you bought a Remington with a 5R barrel you got a Mike Rock cut rifled barrel but that is now not always true. Probly the best bang for the buck from the factory is the Savage model 12 F class rifle. Guys around here are mildly stroking these and are smoking at some of the matches. Guys that have already swapped the factory barrels for quality aftermarket barrels are really hauling the mail. From Remington you can get a custom shop 40X but pay $1K more.
It all depends on what you want in a rifle and the game you want to play. Richard can build you a awesome benchrest gun but you won't be taking that hunting. You can spend $5K and more on a quality rifle but if you do not have the shooting skills it will not do you any good playing the long range game. I had a "coach" for my first shots at 1000yds and he told me a .5 MOA rifle doesn't help a 5 MOA shooter who can't read the wind.
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Post by cfvickers on Jan 31, 2010 23:38:57 GMT -5
1/4 moa rifles, while there are a few out there that can be had for a reasonable cost, are generally very expensive, and none will do it with every bullet, powder or combination. That is the type of group you get from perfect reloading practices and a near perfect rifle. That said, Sniper accurate is 1 moa (1inch group at 100 yards) or better. these can be had by buying a savage LRH or a weatherby sub moa vanguard off the shelf. if you want a 1/4 minute rifle it is going to be of considerably large expense and will take an equally considerable amount of time. And this is assuming you yourself are capable of 1/4 minute shooting, I am not nor are a great many of people. I would start with an extremely rigid stock, floated barrel and aluminum bedded modern action such as a savage 12, remington 700, Sako (# 1 choice for accuracy) or Steyr SBS (Mys #1 Choice. You will not get 3 identical rifles that will shoot these types of groups, maybe one in 5. You are not understanding the variables involved. You can have perfect everything and it still may not shoot like you want it too. Shoot for .5 moa and you will have an achievable goal, one of 5 will be 1/4 minute.
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Post by lunchbox on Feb 1, 2010 6:14:29 GMT -5
Im not saying that I can do 1/4" groups every time or at all. I just want a rifle that is capable of doing it. That way when I go to the range get it all set up, if I am not doing 1/2" or close then it is me. I know the wind has a big part of it and I am not the greatest but I am learning. I was just wondering what everyone thought.
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Post by cfvickers on Feb 1, 2010 12:10:19 GMT -5
I don't think there is a set formula for building a rifle that is useful for any purpose other than bench rest shooting, that will guarantee 1/4 minute accuracy every time. My consistent limit is .42 inches at 100 yards personally, and I know there are those better than me. I have fired several single entry point groups with my standard remington model 700 stainless .300 win mag. I say standard but it came out of their custom shop. All notations on it would suggest that is a regular model 700 LSS. But this gun is a freak of nature and definitely not what you get in most out of the box rifles. Also I cannot shoot that well consistantly. As I said before there are a huge number of variables involved that effect accuracy, many of which cannot be seen with the naked eye, or even a microscope for that matter. If you could take and record a video from all angles at about 1,000,000 frames per second, and could make absolutely perfect reloads you could make guns that could do this consistently, but every one would be different and require different adjustments. As Rossman stated, it starts with the barrel and resonation is a huge factor in accuracy. Every time you fire the barrel resonates a certain amount. You have to find a load where the bullet will leave the barrel at the exact same point in time from ignition every time you fire the gun. and this is effected by everything, bolt tightness, case dimensions, primer uniformity, charge and powder uniformity, pressure uniformity in the chamber and as it exits the bore, trigger pull, and rigidity of the connection between the barrel, action, and stock. I could go on but this should give you an idea of what is involved in the accuracy of a rifle. if anything is not absolutely perfect the accuracy suffers to an extent, The level of that extent depends on how out of whack these factors are. So that said, as I stated, there is no single formula that will work every time. You can build a rifle that will shoot under 1 moa with just about any relatively consistent load, but beyond that depends on the lining of the stars. Weatherby Sub MOA rifles are not built to be sub moa, they are the standard rifles that they find consistently shooting sub moa and they pull them aside and mark them as such. If I wanted a gun that I absolutely knew would shoot half inch or better with the right load, and didn't want to spend a fortune, I would start with a weatherby vanguard sub moa in .308 or .223 depending on the purpose. If I was after a bench rifle I would go with a Savage 12 heavy barrel of some variety. Otherwise spending more It would be custom with no expense spared using a smith that is well known for building tournament winning rifles, then I would listen to his advice and go by it. Many of those guys are able to build rifles that will shoot the way you are asking but they are usually designed around a specific purpose using a specific weight of bullet, and not to be all around rifles. Oh don't forget to get the ideal twist rate as well. Personally I would recommend something in a 6.5mm category if going custom.
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Post by cfvickers on Feb 1, 2010 13:06:15 GMT -5
I just had something that will demonstrate my point that a rifle may be perfect for one bullet but not another. I just went out and shot a Weatherby Vanguard .257 wby. with all factory loaded ammo. I have a 185 yard range in my back yard. Fired two 3 shot groups, and with 87 grain Speer SP factory loads it shot a .56 inch group at 100 yards. However, I had 3 factory loaded 100gr. Barnes TSX and it shot a 5.75 inch group. That is a huge difference, and the large group doesn't surprise me much with factory ammo. the very small group does though. It does demonstrate a large difference just by the bullet it fires. I am considering buying this rifle and I will have to see what the twist rate is. In my experience the 100 gr. TSX will not shoot well in a 1:10 twist barrel, not sure what this one is. But my Encore won't shoot them any better, but it will put 5 110 grain Accubonds in .42 inches.
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Post by deadeye on Feb 1, 2010 14:18:32 GMT -5
i like your effort lunchbox,i have always wanted a rifle day in -day out to be able to put 5 in one hole @ 100yds everyday,even though i have done this only 4 times i keep trying,members here have given you good info.imo you will need heavy custom barrel,bedded both pillar & glass bedded,a jewell trigger set to about 6oz,a perfect re-crown,you will have to handload also. you will also have to find the perfect load & probably let barrel cool approx 5min between shots. i get most off the shelf guns to shoot in the .4's but a lot of load tinkering is involved,i have custom barrels also getting in the .2's often but they also get wild into .5 sometimes. you really have to spend a lot of time logging data & getting to know how the barrel behave's even though the shooter is doing his job. i have a .243 custom that shoots in the 2's,changed powder can's & guess what,hello 1.0moa,back to the bench w the new 8lb jug to re-adjust. its that tedious. good luck!
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Post by whelenman on Feb 1, 2010 17:00:36 GMT -5
Like Rossman said the barrel is the heart of the system. Next you need an action that has either been blueprinted or a custom action. Also you need a target grade trigger such as the Jewell. Then all must be properly bedded into a good stable stock. Then you'll need a proper scope base and rings and a scope capable of the accuracy you're talking about.....not even all high priced ones work. All this must be assembled with utmost care. Assuming all is put together properly then comes the precise loading of ammo which takes some time to achieve. There are ways to save money with the rifle but regardless you're going to have a lot more money in a rifle capable of shooting consistent .25 inch groups than you realize. I've built a rifle each of the past two winters capable of shooting those type groups and am working on another this winter. The first was a 6BRX target rifle, the next was a 7mm Remington Magnum Beanfield rifle and the current one if a .308 Winchester target rifle. They'll all weigh 12-16 lbs. scope included. Mine have been built with Kreiger and Shilen barrels and Remington and Savage Actions (not the best choices but what the budget allows) and a lot of painstaking work. To get this type of rifle from a custom maker with a custom action you're probably talking in the neighborhood of $3-5 thousand at least. Mine are cheap versions and I've still probably got in the neighborhood of 1.5-2 thousand in them doing the work myself. Accuracy can get expensive. It's a long road with a lot of setbacks along the way. But it's sure rewarding when those type groups materialize.
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Post by lunchbox on Feb 1, 2010 18:26:40 GMT -5
WOW. thats alot of info to take in but i think i got it all the 3rd time i read it . Maybe I should go for the 1/2" group or 1" to start out with. I know it will be a heavy rifle but I am going to hunt with it also. It dont bother me to carry around a 10-15 lb gun walking all day if the strap is good and comfortable. Yes I would prefer a lighter one and who wouldn't. Thanks for all the info
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Post by whelenman on Feb 1, 2010 19:06:51 GMT -5
You can do it with lighter rifles. It's just that much harder though. You say walking all day.....if that's your use maybe a half inch group consistently would still be a good goal. The difference between a consistent half inch rifle and a consistent quarter inch rifle is a big one. If you're using it for hunting a consistent inch rifle won't matter much to the deer that's shot with it. Consistent is a mighty big word.
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Post by ozark on Feb 1, 2010 20:43:24 GMT -5
Your goal is set mighty high. That is fine if you can live with the fact that you may need a lot of time and help to reach it. I don't think the shooter lifes that can hold a rifle in a hunting situation with a wobble area less than 1/2 inch. I read on this forum about 1/4 inch MOA. But a .25 caliber rifle is 1/4 inch counting only the diameter of the bullet. If you shoot one holers consistently then you may reach your goal. Lets do some math: One bullet fired would be a total spread of the bullet diameter minus the diameter of the bullet. Meaning zero moa. I personally think that anyone who gets 1/2" MOA with any consistency is a member of a most high elite group. I will get flack here but let er come. I don't think we can equate this bench rest shooting to hunting. I and some others have hunting shacks where we can rest our rifles on a window sill that may even be padded. But that deer may be at a greater or lesser elevation. It may be left or right of permitting you to get into a perfet setup. Even with this nice setup MOA is a reasonable goal that few will attain. Good luck, but I am afraid your goal is a dream and that down the road you are going to be disappointed. I encourage all shooters to do their best and obtain the best equipment they can get. But with my years of experience I believe I can identify a rational goal from a dream.
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Post by cfvickers on Feb 2, 2010 0:21:51 GMT -5
Hey Deadeye, Where you located? You say you can get 1/2 inch out of most guns, so I have one that you could have a ball with. It's a Kimber 84 light weight in 7mm-08. It is actually my dad's gun, because I would not own this trash for more than a week, I say a week because it is usually that amount of time before I could find a gun show to go and pawn it off for half what I gave for it and walk away feeling like I screwed the guy. this thing is PATHETIC!!! I have loaded everything imaginable for it and fired 3 decent groups, I call decent 1.25 inches, and they were apparently accidents, I must have pulled off in the right direction or something, because when I duplicated the load, while being EXTREMELY careful to exact specs, back to 2.5-6 inch groups. I have never in my life come across such poor performance in a bolt action rifle. If you are within 150 miles I will get it to you and end you 2 pounds of powder and bullets and you will have something you can play with non stop for weeks! I have devoted probably 100 hours in the past 6 months to this thing and nothing works. Probably gonna glass bed it next, but I am afraid to put any worthless effort into it because I am almost convinced it would make a better corner decoration, as the gun is beautiful to look at!
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Post by lunchbox on Feb 2, 2010 0:27:12 GMT -5
It is a wish and a dream. lol ;D. I know it will be hard but if I can shoot 1/2 to 1" at 100 to 200 yds consistently I will then know that I can do it and if I can not do it out hunting then it is something that I did wrong. My realistic goal in hunting I would be happy with a 3-4" group at 300 yds. But this was just a ? to see what I would really need. But thank you for all the help. It is making me realize it will be harder than I thought.
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Post by cfvickers on Feb 2, 2010 1:10:45 GMT -5
It isn't completely unrealistic unless you are seriously limited on funds, start saving or buying things here and there and it may take a while but you will be able to eventually aquire the needed items, then all you gotta worry about is paying the smith. It sounds expensive, but if you spread it over a year or two it won't be as bad.
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Post by cfvickers on Feb 2, 2010 1:13:01 GMT -5
Actually al you need is a very large bank account and time. You could then pay others to do the leg work.
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Post by deadeye on Feb 2, 2010 13:26:41 GMT -5
cfvickers/pm sent- from what you are describing i might have to back off to an 1moa ;D ;D ;D has the crown been inspected?
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Post by ozark on Feb 2, 2010 18:42:15 GMT -5
Lunchbox, your comment that you would be happy with a 3-4 inch group at 300 yards gave me a smile. You called that a realistic goal. IMO it is extremely rare and for most not realistic. One good thing about shooting, If we can't reach our goal we can set a new one that we can reach. It is the inherent accuracy of the rifle, then the load, then the position and finally to the weakest link in the chain the shooter. Any hunter that shoots three to four inch groups at three hundred yards while hunting is indeed blessed. I fired as a Master class rifle and pistol shooter many years and If I could get two of three shots in a four inch circle hunting I was happy. I know people posting here are good shots, but I think the groups we hear most about are their best and that those come few and far between. My hat is off to any hunter that can keep their shots in a six inch circle at three hundred yards in a hunting environment.
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Post by lunchbox on Feb 2, 2010 21:40:00 GMT -5
thanks ozark. the 3-4" group im talking about would be at the range with the bench and side walls to help prevent wind and all the stuff you need at the range. If I could do even 6" groups there I would be happy. That way when I do hunt with it if I dont hit what I am aiming for then I know I did something wrong and that I need to learn to read the wind better or something. ;D But I usually start out my wants really high that way I can come down to realization and still feel good about it.
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Post by cfvickers on Feb 3, 2010 0:29:45 GMT -5
Over 300 yards your just aiming for the bread basket, good lung shot where you know he's going down pretty quick, 4 inches at that range from a tree stand rest would be outstanding. I have fired one .6 inch group resting on a 4 wheeler rack and was THRILLED with it. I shoot sub MOA groups regularly from a bench but the field is another story altogether. I don't think it is an unrealistic ulimate goal, just practice a LOT. I shoot most days I am not working but I have a range in my yard so it makes it pretty easy to go shoot. It takes a lot of rounds down range to get to where you can do it consistently for most. However, my ex wife can shoot under an inch and she shoots 3 times a year, for her it is just natural ability that the greatest majority don't possess. Set your goals high and work to achieve it, you may never be able too but it will accelerate your learning curve at any rate. If you would be happy shooting 8 inch groups at 300 then you wouldn't need a very accurate rifle and it wouldn't be much fun when you think your good and go shoot with people who are. The ones who can shoot the type of groups you speak of are few but they started somewhere too.
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Post by rossman40 on Feb 4, 2010 21:55:42 GMT -5
Lunchbox,, Your going to have a tough decision on what to build. SA or LA, what caliber and then where do you want to go with it. You could start out with a basic model and work up from there. Have fun! My possible next project, www.tubegun.net/MAKMagnum.htm
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Post by whelenman on Feb 5, 2010 9:04:59 GMT -5
Rossman, I've also looked at the tubeguns and thought about giving one a try. I'd like to build a modified version of what they have with some changes to the buttstock and rest bearing surfaces. I may never get there but it's been a thought in the back of my mind for the last couple of years. Let us know how it goes if you go that route. I for one would be very interested.
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Post by rossman40 on Feb 5, 2010 10:28:35 GMT -5
I was wanting to make a tubegun ML but thought if I was going to make one on a 700 action just go ahead and make it a repeater. That way I could always put a CF barrel on it and play with that or sell it.
I know they are ugly but they are gaining popularity, Borden Rifles are now making custom actions just to fit tube guns but I'm sure other makers would set up one of their actions also. I have one customer thinking about building one for F-class shoots. Then another thing is why buy a 700 for say $400 for the action and then pay $200 or more to have it blueprinted when a custom action could cost $700-800. You can blame Tubbs for starting it, and now the Marines are testing several as possible replacement for the M40.
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Post by lunchbox on Feb 5, 2010 17:38:12 GMT -5
Do you have to build the tube gun yourself or is it built for you? Looks like a neat gun
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Post by rossman40 on Feb 5, 2010 22:10:43 GMT -5
Basically you start out with a Remy 700 or Remy clone barreled action and stick into a thick diameter tube which is machined. A forearm tube attaches to the front and the stock attaches to the rear. Basically stroke your barreled action (remove your bolt stop, blueprint, pick your barrel and swap out your recoil lug for a washer). Then epoxy the action into the tube using your action screws as guides. You can not use a regular safety so if you want a safety you have to go with a Jewel trigger with a bottom safety. The big advantage of a tube gun is the recoil is in a straight line. The price of the tube kit is about $900 but that is basicly your stock and scope mount. The Eliseo kits are pretty complete, The MAK kits are a bit cheaper and takes a AR buttstock which is not included (fairly cheap and lots of options). If you start off with a stock 700 action, To have the action blueprinted and a new barrel installed $350 A good barrel $350 A Jewel bottom safety trigger $225 Tubegun kit, we will just round it off $1000 So for just a mere $2000 (not counting sight system) you can have a tack driver. www.competitionshootingstuff.com/index.html www.tubegun.net/
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Post by ozark on Feb 12, 2010 20:13:08 GMT -5
I agree the barrel is the heart of an accurate rifle. But searching for the perfect barrel could be a task within itself. The length, straightness, bore diameter, crown, twist rate, gain twist, Bullet jump at throat or bullets seated so that they enter the lands and grooves when loaded. Weight of bullet, speed of bullet and bullet resistance with the bore. Form fitted brass and consistent primers, perfect headspace. Add to all this means that the rifle must be stored in a manner so the barrel doesn't take on a set like leaning against a gun locker. The barrel that was perfect yesterday may not be tomorrow if stored wrong. I think most of us have to accept rifles that are less than perfect just as we shooters are less than perfect. It is mind boggling how accurate we have got them. Perhaps one day we can fire a bullet that is guided in flight to make the needed corrections to hit where the crosshairs were sitting when ignited. Maybe then we will all be satisfied with the accuracy. Until then keep tinkering. It is fun
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Post by lunchbox on Feb 12, 2010 20:56:57 GMT -5
what happens to the gun barrel leaning against a gun locker
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Post by ozark on Feb 12, 2010 21:29:54 GMT -5
Most will take on a curve or bend because of weight exerted against the muzzle end. Rifles should not be stored horzonial or leaning. the axis of the bore should be as verticle as possible. Keep in mind that often they are leaning against something for long periods of time. Obviously bull (heavy) barrels will change less than lightweight barrels.
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Post by petev on Feb 12, 2010 21:33:00 GMT -5
lunchbox, I can shoot 3/4" groups with my CZ .308, that is stock, except for a Timney trigger. CZ's are heavy, but to say that you want even greater accuracy, requiring you to CARRY a 10-15 lb. rifle all day, just doesn't seem realistic to me. At the least, you would end up carrying it by the strap too much, or on your shoulder, in my opinion.
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Post by deadeye on Feb 12, 2010 23:59:56 GMT -5
lunchbox,i suggest you take a look at the 30-06/308 thread,what herman is doing is quite exceptional. all in all i have many somewhat stock rifles that are not heavy in which i can & do shoot up to 1,000yds(yes hunting rifles) most of these print groups in the .3's-.4s very consistent,that is not .25 but these hold their own respectfully. i own matchgrade barrels also but to achieve great results i believe you still have to tune a rifle/barrel in along w/having very good shooter skills. a .308 is a great place to start & easy to learn reloading for
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Post by ozark on Feb 13, 2010 20:13:20 GMT -5
Perhaps the quickest way to get your rifle to shoot accurately is to get Herman to shoot it.
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