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Savage Muzzleloading Message Board
"The Internet's First Message Board For the Savage Muzzleloader" Since December, 4 2000 This forum is dedicated exclusively for the discussion of the Savage Muzzleloader. This message board is not affiliated with Savage Arms. Please note that any loads used that are not in the Savage owner's manual are used at the owner's own risk, this forum's owner will not be held liable for any damage to equipment from using said loads. DO NOT USE SMOKELESS POWDER IN ANY MUZZLELOADER OTHER THAN THE SAVAGE
The day just started off bad and the shooting results were not much better................. Got to the entrance to our club property and saw some odds and ends trash laying around. Papers, drink containers and miscellaneous debris which I picked up and layed on the front seat of my truck. (also on my front seat was my chronograph and a small cardboard box containing three relatively new 9v. rechargeable batteries. Anyway, got down to the range and as usual, burn the trash in the cans and the stuff I collected on my front seat.........................................................Yes! I accidentally picked up the small box with the batteries and threw them in the 50 gal. burn barrel Borrowed a battery from Herman but my chronograph apparently did not like it and I could not get it fired up! Subsequently borrowed Bills chronograph when he was done with it. Modified some loads from two weeks ago and tried a new one. results were just mediocre. I even shot a group with the .50 and know why I like the .45 better. That group is the lone one on the right side piggy back target. 3 shot is 2.2" and a fourth out to the left. Note in group #2 how shots 1, 2 and 5 which were all within 5 fps grouped close together and the shots 3 and 4 which were somewhat higher in velocity moves off to the left? Maybe just coincidence With the two loads I shot, the saboted loads shot over 100 fps faster than the same load sabotless.
We all have days like that Richard. Lucky you didn't have that fire fiasco in NY. You'd be arrested for violating our new open burning law and incinerating toxic waste ;D. Best thing to do is get right back in the game.
As always I enjoy following your weekly posts. I know you like the high velocity loads but at times I wonder how much more accurate a load could be with say a 100fps less. I know you're good at long range shooting so my interest would be the affect of velocity change on certain bullet loads you are using. I'm not going to ask you to change your testing parameters but if you are ever looking for something new to explore I would be keenly interested in seeing those results.
This is interesting..any ideas why sabotless would be slower than with sabots? I would naturally think the reverse would be true.
And a less than perfect seal, especially at the beginning. The bullet most likely slides a bit before the pressure builds enough to expand the base of the bullet, thus reducing the initial pressure since the area is larger and the expansion ratio reduced.
Edge and Tar.........thanks for fully covering that subject ET.......... Actually I had started out going with some slower testing due to my shoulder, but the lead sled makes that a moot point! I have had some good results with slower shots but by and large, I have been getting a lot of good groups at the higher end of the velocity scale. If you look at that group I shot two weeks ago with 5/65----N-110/N-120 where five shot clustered nicely right smack in the center of the target in 1". I believe in the mid 2800 fps range? I thought I would try going up one grain on the N-110 and see what happened? Well, it jumped up 100 fps and with the three shots in the 2940 fps range, they gave me a really nice cluster. The two shots at 2970 and 80 moved out of the group? Did the extra grain of powder cause the delima or strictly the inconsistency in the velocity? Look at groups 3, 4 and 5 which are lower in velocity and you can see how much the POI dropped down. And at 100 yards. All shots were at the same scope setting and same POA........Right in the middle. The lower velocity shots seemed to center more, although lower impact. While the higher velocity shots tended to hit to the right and just a tad higher. I guess I just get hung up on the higher velocity because it shoots so much flatter and, as accurate as the low velocity loads. Again, I am not the big hunter I used to be, but I always strived for accuracy along with high velocity to reduce "hold-over" error. I never sacrifice accuracy for velocity, but if I can get good accuracy along with high velocity, I will take that route every time. Provided my shoulder can take the recoil ;D Herman was shooting one of my N-110/N-130 2900+ fps loads Tuesday and he said: "Boy that load kicks ;D" Richard
Richard, Do you think that barrel harmonics plays a role in group location? I know that I have had a couple of CF rifles that would move groups around left and right as well as up and down. Often I was unable to link those differences to speed, as in slower shoots higher due to longer time in the barrel subject to recoil. If I said that right? I had all these rifles bedded and free floated, so it wasn't caused by the barrel pushing against the fore end as it warms. I helped a friend with a rifle that didn't like much of anything. We finally tried various blocks positioned in the fore end to put upward pressure on the barrel. Talk about a major change! Now, he can almost scrounge any leftover shells, and still get 1.5" groups that consistently print 2.5" high at 100 yds. Another one of those "Shrug" deals! Boarhog
I see shots 2,3,4,5 on Target #1 and 1,2,4,5 with a total group height of about 13/16 using two different bullets. Even if you add in shot 3 on target #2 it only grows to 7/8 inch!
Horizontal seems to be the bogey.
You might want to see if you can find a load that drives the load more vertical. That may be a different velocity, or a different start load velocity ( booster powder ). That may lead to a clue to a perfect load....or not
I feel silly making a suggestion to a shooter as knowledgable as you , but here goes. Try H4198, I use it for all my .45 sabotless shooting, with a 290gr. Barmes TMZ, a WW and 53grs of powder. I find it an excellent load, good luck. Marty
Edge.............You are probably in the right ballpark with your assessment. I will probably go back to that load that did well two weeks ago (5/65 ---110/120) to see if I could duplicate it. And, re-tweak the 6/60 (N-110/H-4198) for a little more velocity. The only way to find out these things is by shooting And that is what makes "paper punching" fun.
Bigmoose.............I have no problem with your idea other than the fact I see it as a "rainbow" type load. Not doubting its accuracy! Also, those Barnes TMZ do not come cheap? Unless I am going to shoot some type of formal/registered competition where I need an "EDGE", I will stick a cheaper type of fodder. I would guess that most of your shooting probably takes place under 150 yards, right? So the trajectory is not a big factor.
From over 941 round fired thru my .45 PN, the 200 gr. SST is about the most accurate bullet I have shot. I shoot the 200 gr. XTP's to see the velocity and general accuracy potential of a load but then re-fire it with the SST's to confirm. In targets one and two the XTP and SST impacted pretty much the same.............but the SST wanted to group better---at least with the shots of similar velocity. Edge........I would totally discount shot #1 on target #1 as it was the first round out of a cleaned barrel. I wish the chronograph was working so I could have compared the velocities!
Richard: I think SW gets his best accuracy with the 200SSTs although not necessarily the his best hunting bullet but I believe they still do fine on his deer shots. I was only allowed one deer this year, I used the 200SST successfully but it was in a .40 sabotless.
Richard, You are right, My longest shot at game is 128 yards, Since I only have a 100 yard range, I don't know how this load would perform at 200 yards. I use the TMZ for two reasons, first its easy to resize, I have that job down to 30 seconds, and I want to shoot the load I hunt with, I'm not sure the second reason makes much sense. With my 50, to target shoot I use Hornady 300gr XTP, When I first get my 50, I bought enough 250 300 Xtp's to last two lifetimes. I use the Barnes X bullet for hunting. Since I no longer can buy the X bullet, using the Hornady make sense. At 76, I may have a lifetime suppy of X bullets.