|
Post by ozark on Jan 25, 2010 19:33:24 GMT -5
Point blank range to many means the target being only inches from the muzzle. Maybe close enough to cause powder burns to the target. Point blank range for hunting rifles is considered that range where the bullet doesn't get above or below the target during flight enough to cause a unsuccessful shot. The point blank range of a particular rifle and cartridge would be considerably longer with a deer than a prairie dog. I like a flat shooting rifle for deer because using the point blank range factor I don't need to compensate for bullet trajectory. Example: If I sight in my .243 rifle using my selected bullet and velocity I am good to go at muzzle to 200 yards without having to consider bullet curvature in flight. Many things can and should be considered when selecting a rifle and bullet for deer hunting. Hand loaders can increase velocity to make the point blank range greater. Although the old reliable 30-30 was a good killer the point blank range was relatively short compared to the 30-06, 270 and other flat shooters. I consider the point blank range of a rifle as the deciding factor for its maximum effective range. Sure you can aim at the back line or slightly higher and take a deer at a longer distance but doing so is dealing with guesstimating range usually. I have used the point blank range of rifles to my advantage for years. I am not comfortable unless I know what it is. It is a confidence builder to know what your point blank range is based on how you sight in. Since I believe many may be helped I am considering starting a survey asking hunter to post their point blank range for deer hunting. Would that be confusing without knowing the rifle caliber and velocity? If i met you in the wood and ask: What is the point blank range of the rifle as you are using , would you be at a loss for a correct answer? If so, then you could improve your hunting skills by learning that answer for the rifle you are using. Don't bash me, I am merely trying to help those who may need help. Questions are invited. If i can't answer them someone on here can and I think will. Ozark
|
|
|
Post by northny on Jan 25, 2010 21:05:54 GMT -5
I am in full agreement, that you should know your MPBR(maximum point blank range) of your rifles. This would include your rifle, load, sighting system that you are using.
Going a step further, you also need to determine what YOU can do with your rifle in a variety of shooting positions.
Personally, with my .270 I have killed a coyote right at the MPBR for my set up (250 yards), from a good rest. At the same time, I have passed on a shot at a deer standing still broadside at just over 100 yards when caught standing without so much as a tree to use as a rest, no sling, in a year where I had not had time to do much practice offhand. When I have to shoot offhand, MPBR is irrelevant.
So while I fully agree you should know the MPBR of your rifle, and it is usefull, keep in mind it has its limits.
|
|
|
Post by ozark on Jan 25, 2010 21:28:08 GMT -5
Northny, you are correct that knowing the point blank range doesn't eliminate the shooter having to do his part. However, knowing it and working within that distance can determine that it is shooter error when misses occur. We certainly must know our presonal limits. Shooter skills are much more varied than rifle accuracy. But when the two are both flawless the animal we hunt has big time problems.
|
|
|
Post by cfvickers on Jan 25, 2010 23:22:07 GMT -5
Point blank range is good to know but it can be adjusted within limits. You got me to thinking and I started playing with a ballistics calculator. I have always sighted my 6.5-284 in 3 inches high at 100 yards. and I knew it should be very close at 300. this puts me dead on at 25 and 250 and only 2.5 inches low at 300 yards. 2.75 inches high at 200. So I would say my max range for a dead on hold is 300 yards. If my loads are performing to the expectations gained from target shooting I would be shooting a 2.0 inch group at 300 yards meaning they would hit between 1.5 and 3.5 inches low at that range which is perfectly acceptable with a good hold on deer sized game. That said, Just as northny pointed out, it doesn't mean that one should go and attempt an off hand 300 yard shot. That would be inviting disaster. I shot that buck this year at 130 yards +/- a couple off hand and had I not been carrying that particular gun I would have passed on the shot. I cannot hold a bolt action rifle steady enough (or at least not one that I have tried) to shoot more than about 50-75 yards off hand with confidence, but with my Encore single shot I know that any larger game inside of 150 is mine. Hunting has a lot to do with the shooters ability and that shooter being intimately familiar with his own ability, and knowing when not to let his ego get in the way of his decision making. I have passed on several very nice deer in the past due to lack of confidence in my shot placement at the given range and I have no regrets about doing so. I would not sleep well thinking I had crippled a trophy or even an old doe. A hunter should never take a chance on crippling a deer, a miss is far better than crippling one but poor shot placement is just as likely as a miss at long range, people tend to forget that. The thought process that angers me most is "I like an automatic so I can get a quick follow up shot". the deer is not shooting back and if you cannot put one bullet with confidence into the kill zone of the deer then you should not take the shot. I have no issues with hunting with an auto loader but that isn't a reason that holds water with me. I have a model 100 winchester that I just like the way it feels and I intend to hunt with it next year, and I will not be afraid to go to the woods with one shot and an empty mag. If you fire twice their should be two dead deer. If you can't do that then you should go to the range more often, I have one in my back yard that anyone is welcome too if they are within driving distance of Hazen Arkansas if availability is the issue with range time. I feel better with skilled marksmen hunting the woods around me. I have fired 4 shots at one deer one time in my life, and it was a broken retical on the scope that caused the misses, not my ability, and those four shots were at an ignorant deer that didn't run off the first three times I shot at her with my single shot 45/70.
|
|
|
Post by ozark on Jan 26, 2010 8:54:17 GMT -5
Knowing and using Point Blank Range to your advantage doesn't mean you have to be a Master shooter for it to be helpful. Naturally, it is wise to limit your attempts to your own personal skills. Individual shooting skills can be improved with good instructions and practice. I stress good because practicing poor techniques and faulty fundamentals is worse than no practice at all. Going to a range and shooting accomplishes nothing worthwhile unless the shooter is developing sound techniques. Perfect a fault and it takes long hard work to eliminate it. But developing shooting skills has nothing to do with the wisdom of knowing the point blank range of a rifle. Knowing the PBR is valuable information to all shooters. If the shooters knows exactly where the rifle is shooting it will tend to boost their confidence and maybe cause them to develop their shooting skills.
|
|
|
Post by cfvickers on Jan 26, 2010 10:02:14 GMT -5
Agreed that poor techniques get worse with practice and there is no substitute for good instruction. I learned from reading and shooting, some was learned from my father who is an excellent shot, or once was, but he is an impatient instructor. Sort of disagree on the importance of point blank range when the shooter isn't competent in the first place. My point was simply that hunters should learn to shoot, and learn their limits. I have no issue with a guy whose max range is 50 yards, I just hope he knows it. Our points are the same in the end, as hunters, it is our responsibility to make clean ethical kills regardless. Without knowledge of your bullets trajectory, you cannot accomplish this.
|
|
|
Post by ozark on Jan 26, 2010 12:17:10 GMT -5
It is really not important that everyone become good shots, good golfers or even good at any sport to be a productive citizen. If you are a hunter the better you can shoot the more fun you will have hunting. It is a lot of sastisfaction to shoot accurately and with confidence while hunting. The squirrel hunter who goes out and gets a limit of squirrel all shot in the head with his .22 gets more pleasure from the hunt than the man who gets his limit with a shotgun and has a bunch of squirrel that are hardly worth cooking. The good squirrel hunter knows that if they are shooting at a steep angle up in a tree that they must aim or sight in totally different than if the shot is on level ground. If you are on a bluff shooting at a deer that is below you several hundred feet and 150 yards distance you will have to aim lower than normal or misshit or miss the deer. These situations show why understanding how the bullet strays from the line of sight is important to know. But only by understanding the point blank range principal can we compensate. Knowledge is power in all fields. It could be considered unethical to hunt without developing sufficient shooting skills to make good bullet placement. Knowledge can increase your effective range without taking away any of the enjoyment. It can make one a more effective, more ethical and better hunter. I started this thread because I know without reservations that many are not familiar with how the bullet angles upward to meet the line of sight, then travels above the line for a good distance before dropping back to the LOS on the horzonial and thereafter travel below with an increasing drop factor. A rifle can be sighted in in a manner where the bullet comes up to the line of sight and then therafter drops below. This means accuracy at only one point and a wrong way to sight in. While in the army I trained on a 106MM recoiless rifle designed as a anti tank weapon. On top was mounted a .50 cal. spotting rifle loaded with ammunition using the exact trajectory as the 106. The .50 cal. bullets were equipped with white phosperous tip and you could easily see where they hit. The key was to use the .50 Cal. adjusting until the bullet bounced of the tank and then immediately fire the 106MM. It gave you a hit the first shot every time. I found that interesting and a very effective weapon system.
|
|
|
Post by cfvickers on Jan 26, 2010 14:34:37 GMT -5
that 106 does sound like a very interesting system! I appreciate your intent, and although there isn't much discussion other than the two of us on the topic, I sincerely hope that people without this knowledge are understanding. My point was not to oppose your position, just to offer a slightly different view point along the same line of thought. But I do believe we are in line as to the end result. To be effective the hunter has to have knowledge of his weapon and sighting. true there are a lot of people who don't understand the idea of a "rainbow" bullet path and hunters need this knowledge. for anyone wondering what I mean by rainbow, if you condense a picture of a bullets path it will look like a rainbow, the bullet will pass the line of sight twice, as in the line if a rainbow, once at a near distance and once at a farther distance. Maximum point blank range is where your bullet will cross the exact point of aim at the farther distance. such as what I said in my earlier post about my 6.5-284 rifle. The bullet crosses the exact point of aim at 25 yards and at 250 yardsThis means, with no cross wind to shift the bullets path (which has too little effect at 250 yards unless it is a very stiff wind to worry about) the bullet should hit my exact point of aim at 25 yards, it will rise to 3 inches above my point of aim at 100 yards, fall to 2.75 inches above at 200 yards(roughly speaking as your rifle's grouping pattern comes into serious effect beyond 100 yards) and then it will fall and hit dead on again at 250 yards. and it will continue to fall beyond that range until it hits a back stop or the ground. Disclaimer, this is likely not the trajectory of YOUR ammunition so it would be good to learn exactly what your own bullet path would look like to be useful. This was figured with a bullet having a very high ballistic coefficient (bucks wind very well in comparison to others) .612 if you care, fired at 2950 +/- a couple feet per second. If you shoot factory ammunition you can get at the very least the velocity in feet per second and the ballistic coefficient from the manufacturers website. Remington, Winchester, Hornady, and I believe Federal as well have ballistic calculators on their sites that tell you the trajectory of their ammunition. If your manufacturer doesn't provide a calculator there is one at www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/ballistics-calculator, all manufacturers I know of list the ballistic coefficient and muzzle velocity of their ammo at the very least, with this you can go and plug that info into the hornady calculator and it will tell you how you should sight your rifle at about any range to get the point blank range of your ammo. Ozark, I hope this adds to your point of educating rather than taking away. I apologize if it seemed that I was getting away from your original point.
|
|
|
Post by ozark on Jan 26, 2010 17:33:34 GMT -5
good post cfvickers. Thanks. It appears that others are not interested or we are discussing something above or below their interests. You understand it, I understand it and we both are aware that the other understands. Unless we get some feedback perhaps the subject is old hat an others have used it to the extent that it doesn't interest them. I used the term parabola once but will not make that mistake again. LOL. Let us just assume that the others don't want to get involved and have their own reasons. At least for now. I am inclined to do more teaching here than many likes, so I will stand by and see if there are any that are interested.
|
|
|
Post by minst7877 on Jan 27, 2010 9:49:16 GMT -5
I have played with a point blank range using my 300 Win Mag and consider it good to go out to 300 yards if (And thats a big IF) I have a stable shooting platform. +1.75 @ 100yds 0 @ 200yds -2.0 @ 300yds
DC
|
|
|
Post by spaniel on Jan 27, 2010 11:38:17 GMT -5
I understand MPBR but do not really employ it. The human eye is terrible at range estimation, so if the deer/elk is far enough away for me to need to consider whether or not it is within MPBR I am pulling out the rangefinder anyways.
Since I am a stickler for detail, once I know the exact range I'm going to dial my scope for that exact range. So all of my guns wear tactical scopes and are zeroed at 100 yds. MPBR is not nearly so useful with a 100 yd zero as if you were to zero as to maximize MPBR.
|
|
|
Post by cfvickers on Jan 27, 2010 11:56:52 GMT -5
Spaniel, All of us would very much like to have all of those toys, but sadly some either cannot afford it or do not shoot or hunt enough to justify the cost of precision tactical scopes and range finders. For everyone else we have to rely on our own ability to judge range by either simple judgement call, or by using natural or placed markers of known distance from our position. For us that don't have the toys MPBR is EXTREMELY important. With most common rifles a 100 yard zero makes 100 yards pretty much your MPBR, so we sight our rifles to the point where we are within an acceptable margin above at 100 yards and this gives us a longer range for which we can hold dead on and feel comfortable that our dead on hold will kill a game animal at any range between our position to slightly beyond our MPBR.
|
|
|
Post by ozark on Jan 27, 2010 12:48:35 GMT -5
Shooting high velocity rifles and suitable bullets within reasonable distances we don't need a range finder or a chart taped to the rifle stock. With slow moving bullets that drop quickly and are actually short range hunting rifles one needs only to know that those animals seen at a long distance are out of range. But the better hunter doesn't accept that as failure. They look at the landscape and determine an approach that will put them within a suitable range for the rifle used. It is called stalking skills and the rewards are high. The hunter then feels that they have managed the hunt rather than put all the pressure of the rifle. Even so, knowing the trajectory of the rifle used is extremely valuable. Point Bland Range is a hunters friend.
|
|
|
Post by deadeye on Jan 27, 2010 12:58:42 GMT -5
great thread & yes i could have answered that in the field especially if in my long range set-ups,lets up the annie,to get the most out of your mpbr,then you need the the maxium point blank zero shooter capable. then in some temperature,air density situations this would need adjusting. i like spaniel use mandatory equipment like rangefinders etc. so the max pbrz or mpbr is not important,but actual field results are to confirm.btw since you ask,my .45pac-nor mpbr=276yds,mpbrz=236yds on a 5.0'' vital zone radius.
|
|
|
Post by spaniel on Jan 27, 2010 14:36:10 GMT -5
Spaniel, All of us would very much like to have all of those toys, but sadly some either cannot afford it or do not shoot or hunt enough to justify the cost of precision tactical scopes and range finders. For everyone else we have to rely on our own ability to judge range by either simple judgement call, or by using natural or placed markers of known distance from our position. For us that don't have the toys MPBR is EXTREMELY important. With most common rifles a 100 yard zero makes 100 yards pretty much your MPBR, so we sight our rifles to the point where we are within an acceptable margin above at 100 yards and this gives us a longer range for which we can hold dead on and feel comfortable that our dead on hold will kill a game animal at any range between our position to slightly beyond our MPBR. I never said MPBR was not important or that it was useless. I said I personally don't use it and it does not fit my precision-oriented mind or the way I hunt. I like to know the bullet is headed for the spot marked by my crosshairs, not a window on either side. Not that there is anything wrong with that, it's just my preference. To each their own. If you sight a .270 or .30-06 in at 100 yds, do you really think your MPBR is barely over 100 yds? It's a bit further than that. I can see MPBR making consulting a drop chart irrelevant if a rangefinder tells you that you are within MPBR. However if you do not have a rangefinder, you might as well sight in 3" high at 100 yds and call it good. Human sight simply does not have the precision to judge distance accurately hundreds of yards away so a 20, 30 or 40 yd change in MPBR will be swamped by the error in your range estimations. If you are going to press the far reaches of your MPBR you'd better have some way of accurately knowing the distance or there are high odds you'll be off. BTW, a $290 Nikon Buckmaster scope has MOA-marked turrets. One of my MLs wears a Barksa Tactical that cost much less than that. I'm not talking $1500 Nightforce scopes here. If someone desired to use a more exacting method than MPBR it is not as expensive as you may think. But MPBR is fine within its limitations, I just don't prefer it.
|
|
|
Post by ozark on Jan 27, 2010 15:45:53 GMT -5
I have no argument with you thinking or methods spaniel. I have a range finder and although I don't use it when a animal target is involved I do measure the distances to various points such as a stump, a tree or rock (anything) that is on a line a deer is likely to show. Around my hunting cabin/blind I have trees numbered like 25, 30, etc. This is lasered distances I use for turkey hunting. My turkey gun will take a turkey at 45 yards but I use that as a maximum. I don't try for a gobbler that is the distance of the 50 yard mark. Someone asked me why I was numbering my trees. I can see people passing by wondering about trees being numbered. But it has come in useful. Back to the point blank range discussion. If you are shooting straight up or down (vertical) then the bullet will cross the line of sight once only. I alluded to this in a earlier post. I mention it here because your range finder distance will not apply accurately with the trajectory when you are shooting at a steep angle upward or downward. On flat ground you are fine. Where there are deep canyons and steep slopes the range finder becomes as useless as using the PBR system. I believe I seen a range finder for turkey hunters that computed the horizonal distance when shooting from a tree stand at a sharp angle downward.
|
|
|
Post by whelenman on Jan 27, 2010 16:02:47 GMT -5
I think of the point blank range concept as being for snap shots. Depending on the rifle I usually zero at 165, 200, or 250. That covers the range from muzzleloader to zippy magnum. It's nice to know what the point blank range for your combo is....I personally use a 6 inch kill zone. That said my point blank range is only going to be used for shots where I don't have enough time. I can't see aiming three inches high or low when I have time to aim for precisely center of boiler room. That's just three inches closer to a miss should something go awry. I usually carry a rangefinder and range the area I'm in first thing in the morning so I have an idea of what my maximum quick point blank range shot limits are. Given enough time I'll be more precise but for that fleeting chance it does work.
|
|
|
Post by ozark on Jan 27, 2010 16:50:42 GMT -5
I see the Point Blank Range concept as providing the shooter a great guide on how to sight in their rifles. I want to keep the bullet as close to the sighting line for as long as I can and be in the kill zone. It prevents me from having any concerns about distance so long as the animal is between me and the Maximum distance of PBR. That to me is a valuable bit of knowledge.
|
|
|
Post by deadeye on Jan 27, 2010 20:51:45 GMT -5
ozark,im gonna disagree on the rangefinder being useless @ steep angle as there are ballistic adjustments for this but you still need the approx range. i have performed some of these out west & its not as severe as one imagines,perfectly doable,but im in full agreement with your point blank thread!
|
|
|
Post by ozark on Jan 27, 2010 22:55:29 GMT -5
I may have misstated my own opinion. Of course a range finder is not useless when the target is above or below the shooter. But the distant to the target is not the actual horizonal distance. An arrow or bullet will curve according to the horrizonal distance between shooter and target which is considerable shorter when steep angles are involved. Let us say you are in a tree stand thirty feet above the trunk of the tree. A deer is at the same horizonal level as the tree trunk ten yards from the tree. you will be shooting ten yards downward and ten yard away from the tree. In that case I believe you should use the ten yard pin to be accurate even though the arrow is traveling twenty yards total. Am I correct? Hopefully some bow hunter will chime in here. I think I may be getting above my learnings. LOL. A range finder would be useful
|
|
|
Post by deadeye on Jan 27, 2010 23:15:20 GMT -5
ozark,you are kinda in luck since i use to own a pro shop(archery) & i use to perform shots like these but some escape my memory,i believe the 10yd up,10yd out the 10yd pin was close(approx 3''high hit) however a almost straight down shot say 10yd up \1yd out required a 30yd pin sighting , i have lost those due to mostly hunting from the ground these days mostly for elk in the rockies. keep up your good threads!
|
|
|
Post by whelenman on Jan 28, 2010 8:39:03 GMT -5
One tip when bowhunting is to use the rangefinder to range to the trunks of trees higher up at the same level as your stand rather than aiming at the ground. That way you have ranges closer to what you need.
|
|
|
Post by ozark on Jan 28, 2010 11:19:41 GMT -5
Good tip whelenman. That provides the horizonal distance. Meaning select a tree the animal is standing by. Correct?
|
|
|
Post by whelenman on Jan 28, 2010 13:34:50 GMT -5
Not exactly. In bowhunting I always range the trees beforehand. Around here we don't have deer that will stand and let you carry on a conversation like in the hunting shows, LOL! It's enough trouble for me to get myself and my bow into position without being busted. I'm not a tiny graceful little thing. Most of the places I bowhunt have lots of trees so picking out 20, 30, and 40 yard ranges with certain trees is no problem. That way also I have a kill zone that once the deer crosses the line he's in range. I only shot one with a bow this year and didn't have to think much about it. I first saw her at about 80 yards through the woods on opening day and she made a bee line straight to 15 yards from me. That one didn't require any thinking at all. Sometimes they cooperate.
|
|
|
Post by spaniel on Jan 28, 2010 21:14:13 GMT -5
OZARK,
There are three solutions to this problem: 1) A $100 cosine indicator for your rifle; 2) A protractor and weighted string in your pack; 3) A rangefinder with ARC
Any of these three options will give you the angle of the shot. When hunting out west in the mountains I use a Bushnell 1500 with ARC. It's a bit cumbersome as I have to switch between modes to get both angle and distance to target (uncompensated for angle) to get the appropriate values for my drop chart (I have columns for various degrees of angle for this occasion).
The important thing to recognize is that you need the horizontal distance (compensated for angle, adjacent side of triangle) for drop BUT you need the actual distance reading (hypotenuese) for wind drift! So you need both!
This all gets way beyond the topic of MPBR so I'll leave it at that...
|
|
|
Post by ozark on Jan 28, 2010 21:29:21 GMT -5
Yes, it can become too complex to even be a benefit. The Point blank range is simple to understand and a good thing for the hunter to know. After zeroing in, there are no equations to make. Just aim and shoot inside the max range and you are in the kill zone. It is that simple. I hope all the calculations hasn't caused shooters to have a mental block on the whole simple topic.
|
|
|
Post by Jed on Jan 28, 2010 22:57:25 GMT -5
My MPBR for a 3" line of sight with my 10ML-II is 187 yards using 44gr. AA5744 and a 300 gr. Hornady #4500 in an orange sabot.
My max. comfortable shooting range from field positions, though, is about 150 yards (still learning!), so I'm covered. The deer I shot this year was about 70 yards away, about 40 feet below me (treestand + hill) and the MPBR method killed him dead!
I agree with you, I like the MPBR because it takes a lot of "guesswork" out of the equation when you may only have a few seconds to make a shot. If you know the range of some objects around where you expect the deer to show up, then when he does, you can just shoot! Also, I personally don't like having complicated reticals in my scope. I find them too busy for my eye.
|
|
|
Post by cfvickers on Jan 28, 2010 23:25:58 GMT -5
I have complicated reticles on my scopes, but I just think they look cool. Really don't know how to use them, well I do but I don't think that much when aiming at a deer. Still makes it look like sci-fi movies from my childhood when I shoot though.
|
|
|
Post by whelenman on Jan 29, 2010 10:29:55 GMT -5
On my Savage I have the bottom post of the duplex sighted in dead on at 200 yards. That puts the crosshair dead on at 165 and then the upper post is on at 100. This is all with the scope at max power of 10. That gets me out to slightly over 200 without a lot of fuss by using the three aiming points that exist in my Leupold duplex. Beyond that I use the deer's body and the lower post for further elevation.
|
|
|
Post by ozark on Jan 29, 2010 11:08:49 GMT -5
Wind has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread. here in hill country unless it is a gale I ignore the wind. It is just as well because the hills causes the wind direction to swirl. If the range is a couple hundred yards or more the bullet is likely to pass through spots where there is no wind and spots where it is coming from different directions. We have placed two foot lengths of survey tape down shooting lanes and have observed the wind direction coming from three or more directions plus being completely calm in places at times. So ignoring it seems as accurate and less worry than trying to determine what it is doing. So on deer, crow or other animals I just stay within my point blank range and aim dead on. Worked out fine so far.
|
|