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Post by Rifleman on Jan 6, 2010 5:53:51 GMT -5
Got a question about John the Baptist but need to preface it with some qualifying statements.
First we know He was fill with the Holy Ghost from the womb. He recognized Jesus as the Saviour when baptized him. But there are some things I do not understand. When He was imprisoned by Herod he sent his disciples to Jesus to ask him if Jesus was the promised Messiah. Also Jesus said that John the Baptist was the greatest prophet but those that believed on Jesus would be greater ( I think a reference to the kingdom was made in this context).
Anyway John has me confused, I am sure he was saved, but when did he get saved?
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Post by craigf on Jan 6, 2010 8:06:55 GMT -5
My opinion about him being the greatest prophet is about the Kingdom of God. The old time, before Christ, John was the greatest but a new time had come. Also, my opinion is that when he asked if Jesus was the one to come is him being honest with his doubt but not unbelief. He believed that Jesus was the Messiah, but everybody back then, including the disciples, was expecting the Messiah to do different things than what Jesus was doing like kick out the Romans and restore he political kingdom of Israel.
As to when he was saved, hard to say. His profession at the baptism of Jesus was most likely that of a believer. His proclamations in the wilderness sounded like a believer too. I would say that when he was taught these things, by his father or maybe by God Himself, he became a believer.
Good Question Dwight
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Post by weasel on Jan 7, 2010 18:36:45 GMT -5
Some Bible scholars believe in dispensations. A dispensation is a period of time in which God deals with man in a particular way. Each of these dispensations ends in judgment. There are 7 dispensations referred to. 1. Innocence – Adam and Eve in the garden with the judgment of the expulsion from the garden. 2. Conscience – Cane and Able to Noah with the judgment of the flood. 3. Human Government – Noah, Ham, Shem, and Japheth and their descendants with the judgment of the dispersion from the Tower of Babel. 4. Promise – promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob with the judgment of bondage in Egypt. 5. Law – Commandments given to Moses with the judgment of the Cross. 6. Grace – Apostles doctrine outlined in the book of Acts which ends in judgment of the rapture of the Church. 7. Kingdom Age – Christ returns to earth to rule for 1000 years which will end in the judgment of the White Throne judgment. Eternity begins and time ends. If you are to follow this belief then John the Baptist would be saved under the dispensation of the Law.
weasel
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Post by Rifleman on Jan 8, 2010 5:52:32 GMT -5
I am a proponent of dispensations, but while under the law, no one was ever saved by the law. It does not do that and never did. Read Romans. Salvation from the first dispensation has always been and will always be by no other then faith in the atonement of the blood of Christ.
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Post by weasel on Jan 8, 2010 7:20:08 GMT -5
Are you saying that everyone born before Christ is condemned? I did not say that John was saved by the law. The law was a type and shadow of things to come. The blood of the sacrificial animals rolled the sins of Israel ahead to the Cross of Christ. Even in the first dispensation Adam tried to cover his sin with leaves but the Lord shed the blood of animals to provide a covering for Adams sin. Cain’s sacrifice of the fruit of the land was not accepted whereas Abel’s animal sacrifice was. I have read and believe what is written in the book of Romans. The faith and obedience of the Old Testament believers was counted to them for righteousness. Read Hebrews 11.
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Post by ozark on Jan 8, 2010 13:32:23 GMT -5
It is believed by some that John The Baptist was the reincarnation of Isaiah. If so Issiah was saved when he ascended in the whirlwind.
I find it difficult to think that people like Moses, Daniel, and the profits are doomed.
It is interesting to look at the passage where Christ came to fulfill the law. Especially when one definition of the word Fulfill means to put into effect.
My thinking is based on personal experience, but it is that man cannot save himself. I am not a believer that making a devoted study of the Bible will save a person. It could lead one into the right mental and emotional position to seek salvation. I will not argue or be dogmatic and say that my way of thinking is right for others. I leave all to have religious freedom.
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Post by Buckrub on Jan 8, 2010 17:09:30 GMT -5
Christ's blood flowed both directions. It "saved" those who obeyed the particular law that they were under while they lived. How could it be otherwise?
The difference is that the Christian Dispensation, or the current one we live in, that Christians get IMMEDIATE 'salvation' or 'saving', while John the Baptist and Isaiah and David and Samuel, et al, only had it 'in promise'. Yet they had it.
John the Baptist was not greater because he did not live to see the Kingdom come into fruition. When the Kingdom (church) came, any one that through obedience became a member of it was far greater than anyone who lived before it, including John the Baptizer, for they had a gift those that preceded them could not obtain.
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Post by Rifleman on Jan 8, 2010 17:36:40 GMT -5
No what I am saying is that just like we look back in faith to the cross, old testament saints looked forward in faith. Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. It is not through faith and obedience that saves they or us were saved. It is by faith alone. Obedience is a result of salvation, not a condition of salvation. My question was not how John the Baptist was saved, just when did he come to faith in Christ.
The promise of the Messiah was given at the fall of man in the garden. Adam using the leaves to cover himself was works and rejected. God came down and killed the animals and made the promise of the Messiah. The killing of the animals and the shedding of their blood did not deal with the sin of Adam and Eve, it was simply a picture. The blood of sheep and goats can never take away sin. It was and is the sin of a man, and it takes the blood of a man to pay the price. The gospel was given by God to Adam after the fall and this info was passed on to Cain and Abel. Abel believed and his sacrifice was accepted, because of his faith in the promised Messiah that would take away sins, not that Abels sacrifice took away sin. Cains was rejected because it was by his own works. Over and over the old Testament teachs of Christ.
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Post by weasel on Jan 8, 2010 18:52:13 GMT -5
Have you considered what is written in the Word of God in the book of James? In particular James chapter 2 verses 17 thru 26. It is not my intention to argue with you for that would not be profitable for either of us. I am just in disagreement on the amount of emphesis that you place on obedience to the Word of God. In the book of Numbers chapter 15 verses 32 thru 36 a man was stoned to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath day. Our Lord said "If you love me, keep my commandments" in John 14:15. I just believe that it takes both faith and obedience.
weasel
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Post by Rifleman on Jan 9, 2010 5:59:44 GMT -5
Weasel of course it is not about arguing or seeing who is right, this is a conversation between reasonable men about a topic that is likely the most important subject one can ever address. What I think and what you think is not the important thing, what is important is what the Word of God has to say on the matter. I think on this we both agree. With that being said, please allow me to share some of my thoughts on the matter, and may the Lord gives us both the grace to understand His mind on the matter.
Let's consider this passage:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The way I understand this scripture is that we are saved entirely by faith in the finished work of Christ on Calvary, by the shedding of His blood. Salvation has nothing at all to do with our works. You see a man that is unsaved can do nothing that is pleasing to God. Even his best efforts are called filthy rags. We are to cease from our efforts and enter into His rest. Jesus is the Saviour, He died for the ungodly, and came to call sinners to repentance, not the righteous. James makes the argument that as a result of a person coming to true faith in Christ, there will be good works in the life of that person that others can see. No man can see my faith. I can tell you all day long that I have faith, but if there are no works, then of course to you, my faith is dead. But here is the cool thing, the works that show you my faith are not mine at all. Alot is said about the fruit of the Spirit, but we need to consider that these are the works of the Spirit, not the works of the man. True faith in Christ results in the Holy Spirit coming and indwelling the man. The Holy Spirit if present does work in the man and those are the works that show our faith to the world. Notice it says we are HIS workmanship and that God hath Before ordained that we should walk in them. The book of James does not at all teach that we are saved by works and faith, but that true faith results in works that demonstrate the faith we allready possess. I agree with you and James both that if a man does not demonstrate a willingness in his life to obey God that it is highly unlikely that the man is saved. He is only fooling himself no matter what he says. A man is seperated from God by his sin. Jesus came and took that sin away. When a man truly comes to the foot of the cross and sees the awful price Jesus paid for that sin and that by it he is reconciled to God, well if he truly experiences that to the depth of his soul, it is a life changing experience. When a man gets saved he goes from death to life, from blindness to sight. He was alienated from God by his wicked works, but now is reconciled. Yes true faith will result in obedience to God, it is a result of salvation, not a condition of salvation.
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Post by dougedwards on Jan 13, 2010 20:09:12 GMT -5
I have never really understood the concept of dispensation. It seems to me that mankind has only one hope and that is through the grace of God. God showed his grace to Adam and Eve by creating them and then having a loving relationship with them. The Creator is under no obligation to love his creation.
You would think that after the rebellious act of the first two people on earth and the following murder of Abel by brother that all of history would be an account of man seeking after God to redeem himself but that is certainly not the case. God in His divine grace seeks after His people even though they are wicked. Time and time again God is rejected but God is longsuffering with us not willing that any should perish but that all would come to repentance.
I only see grace. His grace was shown to Abraham and Isaac and Noah as well as Mary Magdelene and Saul of Tarsas and to all of us here today. We and all of nature exist by the grace of God who loves us. What other dispensation is there? Without grace we would not be in existance.
Doug
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Post by Rifleman on Jan 13, 2010 21:18:37 GMT -5
Well said Doug, I am no theologian, I just read the books. But no doubt the only way anyone ever got saved is by grace through faith in Christ. I understand somewhat the teaching on different dispensations, but when some take that idea to the extreme and say that people get saved differently in different dispensations I must disagree. Really King David is a prime example. He committed murder and adultery. Yet he also penned the words, Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute sin. When he cried unto God after his sin, he asked God to restore unto him the joy of his salvation, not salvation. So here we have a murderer and adulterer. But David understood grace. God wrote King Davids legacy as well. Of David, God said that David was a man after Gods own heart. Now that is the kind of grace I love! The Gospel is good news! Christ rescues sinners! Yeah man !
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Post by dougedwards on Jan 14, 2010 2:33:37 GMT -5
17Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear. 18For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
22Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24For,
"All men are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25but the word of the Lord stands forever."
This passage from 1 Peter surely indicates that God was well aware of mans inclination for wickedness and made provision for it even before He created the universe. But the work is not finished as some have assumed. The day is coming when we shall see Him as He is and we will see ourselves for who we are. On that day there will be noone who will wonder what or who are why.
Praise be to God that Abraham and Jacob and Noah and Joshua and all who have a greater understanding of God's grace, are not redeemed by the perishable and empty way of life that was handed down to all of us from our forefathers. For we who love God have promises not based on perishable things but rather on the imperishable seed of God. That seed is the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. The Word is Jesus and only Jesus. God through his diviine grace offers His imperishable seed to us so that we might look forward to His coming. Then we all will stand with John the Baptist without question or wonder but in all humility in that God first loved us and exhibits that love through His underserved salvation. Not through our own work less anyone should boast.
Doug
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Post by weasel on Jan 14, 2010 20:09:43 GMT -5
I find this conversation interesting and if you do not mind, let me inquire of you on how you look at certain things. Don’t be surprised but I agree with most of what you are saying. Only the grace of the One true God can save a person for all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. It is just the way it is being said and how certain words are interpreted that I find a disagreement in. Take the word Faith for example. Last week I had trouble with my car. The battery was just struggling to start it. I bought a new battery and since that time the car will fire right up with no problem. Now I have Faith that when I get into my car and turn the key that it will start right up! I have lots and lots of Faith that my car will start now! Will that Faith save me? Absolutely not!!! Hebrews 11 and verse 1 says “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” I do have Faith that the things written in the Word of God are the Truth! When I read that Jonah was swallowed up by some huge sea critter, that is exactly what I believe happened. Now there is a word that has been introduced into this conversation by dougedwards that I am delighted to see and I am very curious how you feel about the word “repentance”. What does that word mean to you and what if any significance does it have for you?
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Post by ozark on Jan 14, 2010 22:51:29 GMT -5
If faith is belief in things not yet seen then a magnet is a good item to use as a teaching aid. You can't see or feel the force but it can easily be demonstrated.
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Post by Rifleman on Jan 15, 2010 5:08:31 GMT -5
Repentance is simply a change of mind. Look up and see the Bible says that God repented. Now that will through a wrench on the view that repentance is some sort of being sorry enough for ones sin.
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Post by dougedwards on Jan 15, 2010 6:53:32 GMT -5
Jesus taught his disciples to pray in a way that they would ask the Father in heaven to forgive them of their sins AS they forgave those who have sinned against them. The Old English word used for sin in this passage that is found in the King James version is "trespass" which means to violate. It is surely one thing to be repentant so that you might be free from guilt but purely another thing to be able to also truly forgive others who have "violated" you in some way.
Repentance is a daily activity and true repentance actually begins in the heart before it is ever uttered with the mouth. Repentance is an awareness of depravity and also an awareness of God's goodness and His ability to wipe sins away clean. Repentance has no affect when we hold onto grudges or strive to be malicious in some way to others. Repentance is a way for us to show God that we love Him and in doing so receive imparted love and faith through our spirits from Him. This is the power for living. For it is God that has the power and we shall give him ALL of the glory.....for ever and ever. AMEN
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Post by Rifleman on Jan 15, 2010 18:06:55 GMT -5
Well Doug if you are right in your definition why does it say God repented? He has no sin, so your definition won't fit there. Interested to hear your response.
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Post by dougedwards on Jan 15, 2010 18:57:20 GMT -5
Genesis 6:6
And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Exodus 32:14
And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Deuteronomy 32:36
For the Lord shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants.
1 Samuel 15:11
It repenteth me [God] that I have set up Saul to be king.
1 Samuel 15:35
The Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.
2 Samuel 24:16
The Lord repented of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, it is enough: stay now thine hand.
1 Chronicles 21:15
The Lord beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand.
Isaiah 38:1-5
In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And Isaiah ... said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order: for thou shalt die, and not live. ... Thus saith the LORD ... I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.
Jeremiah 15:6
I [God] am weary of repenting.
Jeremaih 18:8
I [God] will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
Jeremaih 26:3
That I [God]may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them.
Jeremiah 26:13
The Lord will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.
Jeremiah 26:19
The Lord repented him of the evil which he had pronounced against them.
Jeremaih 42:10
For I [God] repent me of the evil that I have done unto you.
Amos 7:3, 6
The Lord repented for this.
Jonah 3:10
God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them. [/font]
In these passages the word "repent" is used in a sense of regret. We get into a sticky situation here when we assume that God truly regrets His own actions. If God is God then He will certainly know in advance the result of any of His or anyone else's actions. The mortal authors who were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write are applying human types of emotions to God such as the feeling of regret.
We see this done throughout the Holy Bible with such a passage that says that heaven is God's throne and the earth is His foot stool when elsewhere the Bible says that God is Spirit being void of an earthly body. Another passage says that no man can look on God's face and live. In my opinion these types of passages were written to best describe an indescribable God but also a God who is like us in that He has emotions. It is hard to imagine that God exhibits the feeling of regret in the same way that we humans do but that, of course, is debatable.
I personally don't feel that God feels guilt and shame for His actions with a strong desire to turn away from his errant ways in the same sense that men would do. Repentance in the mortal sense seems to have more to do with a spiritual grieving such as we find in the passages in Psalm 51 and I don't believe that we can apply that same word to both God and man across the board and assume that it means the same or carries the same weight. However, this is the type of fodder that fuels heated debates as we try to understand God in earthly terms. God did realize that we have a desire to connect with him in terms that we understand as evidenced by Him sending His son to earth in human form.
Doug
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Post by weasel on Jan 15, 2010 21:29:49 GMT -5
I like Doug’s comment for the Word says in Isaiah 55 verses 7 through 9 “Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts , neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
To gain a better understanding of God’s word, it is beneficial to keep three concepts or themes in mind.
1. Content - The subject matter of a written work. (What do the words in the verse say?)
2. Context - The part or parts of something written or printed, as of Scripture, which precede or follow a text or quoted sentence, or are so intimately associated with it as to throw light upon its meaning. (What do the verses before and after this verse say? How does the verse fit in with the rest of the chapter?)
3. Audience - The spectators or listeners assembled at a performance, for example, or attracted by a radio or television program. The readership for printed matter, as for a book. (Who was the intended audience for this verse who was the author? (Yes, I know what 2 Timothy 3:16 says but each book does have an author.) )
Some people go to extremes and try to take one verse of Scripture and build an entire belief system around that one verse without taking into consideration the context or intended audience for the verse. They will take one verse like Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith;” and then slam their Bibles shut and not listen to any one or any other verse of Scripture. Is this verse true? Absolutely! Is the verse before it true? Absolutely! Is the verse after it true? Absolutely! Is the chapter it was written in true? Absolutely! Etc. etc. Paul was the author of this verse and he was writing it to a group of people that had repented and were baptized in Jesus name and filled with the Holy Ghost.
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Post by petev on Jan 21, 2010 21:05:36 GMT -5
I'll throw a little monkey wrench in here. Some have downplayed the works of man versus faith. I think that men can do very good works as a direct result of their faith. I think that God recognizes works that are done with pure intentions, or even after asking for guidance from him through prayer, as opposed to works done for purely human reasons.
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Post by dougedwards on Jan 22, 2010 8:41:56 GMT -5
I'll throw a little monkey wrench in here. Some have downplayed the works of man versus faith. I think that men can do very good works as a direct result of their faith. I think that God recognizes works that are done with pure intentions, or even after asking for guidance from him through prayer, as opposed to works done for purely human reasons. Very good observation here. However, I do think that sometimes Christians give themselves too much credit for the good things that they do or for even resisting sin. When we credit ourselves for "being" good we also tend to take all the responsibility for the sins that we commit. According to some scripture we can do no good other than acting on upon the influence of the good spirit that resides within us. Also the Bible tells us that WHEN we sin we have an advocate with the Father who is faithful to hear our confessions of repentance. Remember James 5:16 "Confess your sins to one another and pray for each other so that you may be healed." Doug |
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Post by chuck41 on Feb 6, 2010 14:31:35 GMT -5
. . . . . . . . . Anyway John has me confused, I am sure he was saved, but when did he get saved? This has strayed all over the place from the original subject. Luke 1:41 states that when Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting the baby leaped within her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. Apparently John was a "believer" when only in the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy. Based upon that I could only conclude that he was "saved" from the sixth month, even before his birth. As in Jeremiah 1:5 where God stated, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you. . . " Apparently in John's case that pre-knowledge was shared with John. However, I am firmly convinced that it is God's prerogative as to when someone is counted "saved", not mine. It shall forever be known only to the person saved and to the Holy Creator as to the exact time and place that occurred. Some of us know that date precisely, others only have a general idea as they came to know the Lord over a period of time. We can only conclude someone else's state by the fruit they bear, and even then we very well might be wrong. |
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Post by dougedwards on Feb 7, 2010 13:58:06 GMT -5
The 9th chapter in Paul's letter to the Romans deals with this very issue. The whole chapter explains God's righteous and sovereign choices. Here is a snippet.
"So then, It is not by him who wills or by him who runs, but of God who shows mercy" Romans 9:16
Also the second chapter of Ephesians clearly describes conversion as a God act not a man act so that no man is able to boast. John the Baptist was clearly chosen from birth and the fact that he had doubts only made him human but does not speak to his salvation through God's election.
Doug
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