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Post by deadeer on Jan 5, 2010 13:07:55 GMT -5
Hey fellas, With Indiana allowing the use of a rifle now, I am wanting to jump on the bandwagon. Per the rules, caliber of .357 or larger, case length of 1.625" max, it leaves the choices slim. We can use high powered rifle calibers in a handgun, which I do, but just looking for a long gun with faster repeat shots than my 10mlII. I have read all about the 358bfg that was mentioned in an earlier thread. Interesting but pricey for dies, $150, plus $400 and change for a barrel. (This will be an Encore build.) There is a good website on the 357max that an Indiana hunter made. Around 2200 fps with a 180 gr Hdy ssp bullet, which would be a solid 200 yd gun. I need 250 yd max potential. I have also corresponded with JD Jones and he says his 375 Whisper is also a viable option. He says it can shoot 2400 fps with a 220 Hdy, and a very accurate 250-300yd deer gun. If you know anything about JD Jones and his history, it would be hard to argue. I have thought about the 460 s&w Encore Katadihn 20" barrel, but you would have to use 454 Casull shells due to case length. I do load for the 454 and have all components. JD said he does not think you could get good accuracy with the 454 in a 460 chamber throat. Or, you could have a T/C custom shop barrel made in 454. Has anybody tried the 200 gr .452 ftx in a Casull case yet? I have since sold both 454 guns I had, so I have nothing to try it in. How about the 445 supermag? Anyway, I guess what I am saying is that my wheels are spinning in the Indiana snowstorm we just had/have going on right now and I would love to hear anybody's experiences with these calibers in carbine or rifle length barrels. Any thoughts? Thanks fellas. Jay
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Post by dans on Jan 5, 2010 13:25:30 GMT -5
My son killed a couple of deer with the 357 max. 180 grain SSP the farthest 109 yards. Ran about 20 yards and done. He is convinced it is a good one. Rifle is a Nef handi on an sb2 frame.
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Post by Rifleman on Jan 5, 2010 18:51:19 GMT -5
I know this is not the answer you are looking for but I am taking a wait and see attitude right now. The rumor mill says that IDNR is not done yet with changing the rules. Whispers are being heard that straight wall rifle cartridges are the next move. 45-70's and the like. The 358 and others are interesting but pricey. If the rules change again, what opportunitys will we have then? I really do not know. Right now my 44 mag carbine is a cheap, accurate and very capable of 200 yd shots, so for me the answer is to wait and see.
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Post by deadeer on Jan 6, 2010 10:41:11 GMT -5
Well that would be encouraging news if they further expanded the caliber choices. It would definately open a whole new can of worms. I did hear somewhere the first year someone was busted, unknowingly, using a 45/70 rifle, and their aliby was that it's a straightwall cartridge. But, the rules do not say straightwall, only pistol cartridge rifle, but then contradict to only give the requirement of bullet diameter and case length, not actually a pistol caliber. So if he did not read thoroughly or just assumed straightwall, who knows. I did look up some 45/70 load data and guess I never paid much attention. You can get 2500 fps with a 300 gr bullet!!! That,s where I was this year with 10mlII speeds! I LIKE IT!!! Thanks, Jay
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Post by Rifleman on Jan 6, 2010 17:49:53 GMT -5
Absolutely Jay, matter of fact allthough you would not want to use the Barnes original in a tube fed magazine, it would work out very nicely in a 45-70 without all the hassle of a muzzle loader. I would think it has a lot of promise and the 45-70 has a long tradition of being an accurate long range shooter for those who know how to deal with the rainbow trajectory.
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Post by deadeer on Jan 6, 2010 19:37:23 GMT -5
It would be a single shot Encore barrel, so no problem there. I did shoot the BO this year in the Savage so I would be ready for action. The trajectory is not a problem either with a ballistic plex scope, so lets keep our fingers crossed fellas! Jay
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Post by mshm99 on Jan 6, 2010 20:18:00 GMT -5
I've been shooting a 12" Bullberry 357/44 Baines-Davis Contender for 13 years. It slightly exceeds 357 Max case volume ,but meets the case length criteria. Dies are stock RCBS. With 23 grains N110 I get 2150 fps,with a 150gr. spire point core lokt.
IL. legalized straight wall cartridges a few years ago. I'd wait . That 460 S&W is a bear. 308 velocities ,200 gr . bullet.
mshm
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Post by lastofthebreed on Jan 6, 2010 20:40:00 GMT -5
lets keep this alive.....i would like to hear more.
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Post by mike3132 on Jan 7, 2010 2:10:20 GMT -5
On the legalizing the straight wall rifles for Indiana, a man I know who is in the know says its a no go, just a rumor. The only new weapon that is in the near future in Indiana is crossbows in all archery season. This should happen in the next two years. Mike
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Post by deadeer on Jan 7, 2010 8:25:04 GMT -5
>:(Thanks alot Mike >:(Well I would rather hear a no-go now than to get all excited and dream a losing dream. Jay
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Post by rjhans53 on Jan 7, 2010 10:12:58 GMT -5
I've decided to put a round together to meet Indiana regs. I'm not sure if it's going to work (a crony will tell me that) but I should be able to best a 357 herrett and I think at least match 35 rem performance. Now keep in mind my round is like it is because I'm cheap. It's a short 358 win (by .3") and the neck trimmed down just a bit to meet the 1.625 requirement. I've got a set of lee dies ordered that I will shorten up .3". I've got a custom lee case gauge ordered to trim to 1.623. The chamber will be throated the same as a 358 win so I can set bullets out and get a bit more powder in. Case capacity is 2 gr more than a 357 herrett and will work on a standard bolt face I should be able to use the herrett load data for a starting place to work up a load. Oh and if the clan ever sells the ground in IN the thing is that I can always deepen the chamber .3" and have a 358 win. No it won't be a 250 yard gun but it will be a good solid 150 yard with over 1000 fp of energy if I'm right.
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Post by deadeer on Jan 7, 2010 13:29:06 GMT -5
Glad to see everyone chiming in here. I thought about some type of wildcat, and ran some things by JD Jones, but he did not sound impressed with anything. (Hope he was speaking from an honest veiwpoint and not a "buy mine" attitude, which by his responses I think he was being honest.) He says there is no comparing a pistol bullet to a rifle bullet regarding accuracy and trajectory, which I agree. He is leaning towards his 375 Whisper, which is a 7mmBR shell necked up to 375, and then fireformed. He sent me load data that looks impressive. Of course with such a limited powder amount, due to cartridge restrictions, an efficient round is required. A 220gr 375 cal bullet at 2400 fps, 1 in 8" twist has to have better trajectory than any 45 bullet at same fps, agree? So that is the direction I am leaning. I wish he had a 357/358 cartridge, but he said it didn't work out when he designed them. There seems to be a much bigger selection of bullets in 358, from pistol to rifle. I really want to try a 357 max, but have read that the t/c custom shop cuts a crappy, short throat that doesn't work with the 180ssp or 200ftx. Mike Bellm said he would recut a 357 mag chamber to max, but that's another $95, I believe. Decisions, decisions! Jay
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Post by mshm99 on Jan 8, 2010 19:48:31 GMT -5
You can load a .358 spire point bullet in a .357 max. I would load a dummy 180gr and have my chamber cut accordingly.
mshm
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Post by rjhans53 on Jan 9, 2010 2:37:50 GMT -5
If the data from load from a disk is right I should be able to push a 200 @ 2200-2300 (I was hoping for 2000-2100). Sighted in @ 100 should be 2.9" low at 150 with over 1400 of energy (using the 2100 fps). Time will tell, I got my dies today, trimmed them down and made a dummy round (will also be a go gauge). Should have the rifle put together by the end of the month. If I wanted a more simple (or easy take your pick) I'd look hard at doing a 358 gremilin in a savage. He claims to be pushing a 180 bullet at 2325 fps with lil gun which isn't nothin to sneeze at in timber hunting, although hunting in open bean fields it might leave something to be desired
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Post by Rifleman on Jan 9, 2010 6:23:24 GMT -5
What about the 358 BFG which pushes a .358, 225 gr bullet at 2600 fps with a bc of over .4? Looks like to me at least on paper this is a 500 yd shooter...
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Post by mshm99 on Jan 9, 2010 11:18:13 GMT -5
That .358 BFG looks like a real hotty. 57 grain H2o case capacity. Dies $150. Brass a $1 a piece . Seems a pricey to me. You could always rechamber to it from .357 max.,if the price comes down and it proves itself a worthy conversion. Being the first kid on the block is always expensive for latest and the greatest.
mshm
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Post by rjhans53 on Jan 9, 2010 13:47:44 GMT -5
I think I read where the brass is 1.75 ea, need a wsm bolt face action (which I don't have) and from what I read it's got quite a thump on both ends. I really looked hard at that but decided not to go that route. At least for the time being
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Post by mike3132 on Jan 9, 2010 17:08:16 GMT -5
I got the brass and dies for the 358 BFG a couple days ago. Should have the barrel in early Feb. You can make the brass yourself. It should be interesting shooting this gun and I will post a report and shot targets. Mike
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Post by deadeye on Jan 9, 2010 18:25:09 GMT -5
im gonna guess those .4 bc's are going to be a little generous,the 200gn bullets are in the mid 2's & as high as .3.// im hearing from the grapevine the 358 bfg will be around here for years to come,in fact maybe opening doors possibly for more calibers. im hearing only the co's are bitching. btw -sinclairs can get the dies for $158, ordered mine friday.
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Post by Rifleman on Jan 10, 2010 6:18:05 GMT -5
I am looking forward to hearing your reports.
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Post by mike3132 on Jan 22, 2010 23:09:42 GMT -5
www.in.gov/legislative/bills/2010/IN/IN1343.1.htmlA little update on Indiana's PCR law, there was a bill introduced to lengthen the maximum cartridge OAL from the current 1.625 to 1.800. From what I hear the bill is going no where and wont get passed. Mike
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Post by hankinindiana on Jan 27, 2010 9:30:10 GMT -5
I read a post about a guy that took a 460 S&W case and shortened it to 1.625", then loaded to 460 data, and left the bullet seated long to 460 col. The accuracy was the same but lost 50-75 fps.
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Post by lanenebraska on Jan 30, 2010 20:08:06 GMT -5
How bout just cutting down the 45-70 case, and loading it up, and keeping the bullet out as long as possible?? Sounds very do-able, ya want me to work up some loads and post the results for ya?
I'd be using the NEF HandiRifle with 22inch barrel....
The 45-70 IS a pistol cartrige...See the BFR Below
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Post by dans on Jan 31, 2010 9:57:01 GMT -5
I was reading over on the Marlin board where a guy was doing that very thing. Shooting slightly cut down 45-70s in his marlin lever.
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Post by rjhans53 on Feb 7, 2010 18:45:37 GMT -5
Lane I thought about it and decided it might work for a back up rifle so I got up this am, cut down some 45-70, put some 4227 in them behind 300 coreloc's and off I went. The cases were not cut very even and so I'm taking that into account for now. This is worth messing with. Took 10 rounds. I had one really high flier but I think that was different case result. I would say they are grouping 1" @ 50 so if you wanted to go with that you have better than a 150 yard deer gun. If this dang KP1 had a decent trigger it would help too. Ok here is an idea that I've been rolling around all day. Opinions are needed on a SS sleeve (around 1/2" long) basically the size of the fired case to help guide the bullet to the rifleing and Keep it straighter. it would sit against the front of the chamber and might help.
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Post by hankinindiana on Feb 8, 2010 7:51:38 GMT -5
I would fear that the sleeve might move foreward and jam the barrel. I've been shooting this cartridge since the law came in. First with the 40-60 marlin, then the 45-70 with a trapdoor. The best recorded group in the trapdoor came from this cartridge. Last year I bought a marlin 1895 and pushed the velocity to 1550fps with a 300 g bullet. My groups are very consistant at 2-3" @ 100yds. I don't think that the jump to the rifling is a major factor as there are no signs of metal shaving at the throat and If there were much distortion of the bullet entering the throat the accuracy would not be consistant.
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Post by rjhans53 on Feb 8, 2010 19:06:40 GMT -5
Hank after really thinking about it, I tend to agree that the what if's really out weight any benifits that you might get from it. I was going to get here and edit and remove that idea from the post but seeing you beat me here we will leave it in and just agree that it's a bad idea
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Post by deadeye on Mar 17, 2010 15:36:23 GMT -5
What about the 358 BFG which pushes a .358, 225 gr bullet at 2600 fps with a bc of over .4? Looks like to me at least on paper this is a 500 yd shooter... report-yes i consider this a 500yd gun. 2 different guns/shooters all sub-moa even out to 700yds just last week. our bullet the barnes 225 tsx bc .359,bc started to suffer more past 500 due to velocity loss. longer ranges 500plus are doable only if equipped w/ a scope for dialing(scope that will proof)the burris xtr 4x16 w/ 1'' vertical increments would be an excellent choice imo. the wind buck for this bullet was in line w/ballistic charts also
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Post by deadeer on Mar 19, 2010 21:34:25 GMT -5
I got my barrel in from the T/C Custom Shop already. It only took about 6 weeks, even though they said 12-14. I got a 24" heavy Encore in 357 Maximum. It is throated long for 180ssp and 200ftx bullets, because that'swhat I plan on using. Kinda busy right now, so I'll post results a little later.Thanks fellas. Jay
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