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Post by nmaineron on Dec 2, 2009 20:58:22 GMT -5
I decided to experiment and left my ML loaded overnight in the truck,my gear was in the truck also.Went to the range and she fired fine.Reloaded and she hung up.When I decided to pull the breech the powder had the consistancy of mud.I cleaned and reloaded and got the same results.Same mud.Did this three times.Somehow the powder which was still in the container and sealed tight got moisture, presumably from the below freezing temps we have.I have never known plastic to sweat and there was no evidence of sweating,the container was dry and the powder looked fine and poured fine.Got me baffled!
If this powder is this finicky,I can't use it or trust it.I live out of my truck during hunting season,and this is unacceptable.
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Post by sw on Dec 2, 2009 22:40:50 GMT -5
Were the conditions such that the gun could have sweated inside? I doubt this is the case.
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Post by nmaineron on Dec 2, 2009 23:16:17 GMT -5
I'm sure that it could have but it fired the load that was left over night.Seems that would have dried out any moisture.The rifle had no sweat on it at all and it was in the warm truck for at least four hours before I went to the range.
What I think may have happened was that I have a flask that I pour the powder from the container into which I then pour into the metered tube(I don't know what these tools are called).I had just about a 100 gr load left in the flask but I added to the flask from the container to make sure I had enough for a full load.I am thinking that maybe the moisture got to the flask.It surley didn't look at all wet, but.....
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Post by sw on Dec 3, 2009 7:58:38 GMT -5
I don't have any Blackhorn but have looked at it's container. There was a picture of 2 different designs of BP nipples: one a "use" and the other a "don't use" Blackhorn powder. Do you know that your's is on the "OK" list? Also, reg strength 209s. What 209 do you use? Gun?
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Post by nmaineron on Dec 3, 2009 9:54:45 GMT -5
I am shooting a converted 700 Rem (Canadian conversion)and Wincester shotgun primers.
I went to the range the previous day and fire four or five shots,went hunting left it loaded and fired it the next day.It shot well and grouped OK.
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Post by underclocked on Dec 3, 2009 12:53:51 GMT -5
The "mud" part baffles me, but have you cleaned that breech plug?
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Post by nmaineron on Dec 3, 2009 17:48:40 GMT -5
My rifle shined from cleaning.The only thing that it had in it was four or five shots at the range to check and see how this powder was going to print and the one that was left overnight,which fired strong and printed fine.
The reason for my experiment was all the talk about getting 40 to 50 shots out of blackhorn without clean.I guess lesson learned.
The mud thing has me quite baffled as well.I would have thought that the shot fired from overnight would have dried the barrel out.When I pulled the breech and emptied the load, what remained was wet like "mud".The patch was really dirty when I swabbed.
I am going to try something with the powder.I save the moisture packets that come in my meds and other items that have them.I put them in/on my barrels in my gun cabinet during the off season.I am going to put a couple in the powder and let it set for awhile and try it later.Maybe I can salvage it.At 40 bucks a can and only a few shots short,its worth a try.
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Post by rmclaughlin on Dec 4, 2009 8:54:49 GMT -5
All I can go by is personal experience.Shot my Encore several times at the range, loaded back up ,went hunting. Shot a buck 2nd day and a doe 5th day.NO PROBLEMS with ignition.For those of us that remember when pyrodex was the new hot thing we are just happy &amazed with blackhorn209.I always leave my muzzleloaders in the truck all of the season.
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Post by sw on Dec 4, 2009 10:52:59 GMT -5
For those of us that remember when pyrodex was the new hot thing Some of us can remember when black powder was "the new hot thing". Seriously, I do remember Pyro's introduction and the dismay that the corrosion problem brought. I shot in tournaments every summer and tried Pyro P in my 1857 Gremler Hawkin replica(Ozark Mtn Arms) 4340 steel. It shot wonderfully with 80g of "P". I religiously cleaned this wonderful gun.
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Post by jeremylong on Dec 4, 2009 13:07:28 GMT -5
Kinda funny how expectations change over time.
But, I can tell you this about blackhorn. I have one shooting days experience with it. It was just as dirty as T7 in my opinion only didnt have the crud ring. About two weeks a go or so a guy was shooting at my house was licking a patch followed by a dry patch. The 3rd shot with BH209 misfired. He said that was the first time his encore ever misfired. Scared him enough to make another 2 hr trip to the big town to get more powder. He came back with T7 and Shockey Gold and puffed those down range through the chrono. At anyrate, It does sound a little finicky.
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Post by blackhawk7204 on Dec 5, 2009 6:23:31 GMT -5
Do not use any water (spit included) to clean BH209! It says right on the container not to use water, use regular bore solvent not black powder solvents. I use a very tight fitting sabot with BH209 and a Federal 209A primer, the only thing that would be any cleaner is smokeless powder. I can load and shoot dozens of shots with no swabbing at all, accuracy is top notch too. Maybe the secret is a tight bullet fit for a complete burn.
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Post by nmaineron on Dec 6, 2009 12:07:33 GMT -5
I went to the big city yesterday to have this discussion in the big gun shops.To my surprise neither one of the shops carried BH and new next to nothing about it.
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Post by DHinMN on Dec 6, 2009 12:17:36 GMT -5
In your second post you mentioned using a flask to measure out your powder. Did you ever open it up and look inside. Was there moisture in there. A lot of us use premeasured charges in small containers to carry the powder. This may help avoid contamination of the powder. We have some people selling powder vials on the forum here.
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Post by nmaineron on Dec 6, 2009 12:37:49 GMT -5
I haven't gotten to the efficient stage yet.I believe that the flask was the problem,but I am still having a hard time believing that this stuff is that finicky.
I use a TC plastic flask that has a push button release to allow the powder to fall through to the measured tube.I should have just emptied what was left from the range into the container because there was barely enough for a load left in the flask.When I went back to the range the next day I added to the flask and must have contaminated it.
Even still,I emptied it all back into the container when I started having failures and started over.Now, everthing was fresh from the container and still wouldn't.So.... what little bit (about 100grs)that got wet, contaminated a 10 oz. container.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2009 13:45:35 GMT -5
I just started using BH209 recently, I love the performance, accuracy, no crud ring and ease of cleaning, but I have had 2 misfires at the range. I am using CCI primers and may now switch back to Winchester primers. I do not know if it is the powders fault or the primers but I do know I have never ever before had a single misfire using any other powder. It's definitely got me wondering and nervous.
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Post by sw on Dec 16, 2009 14:44:19 GMT -5
Ohioguy, Have you tried the CCIm? Have a tight load?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2009 17:41:06 GMT -5
No I haven't, I've always used Winchester primers with no problems, I did try the Remington primers for a short while. I'm not sure what to blame the misfires on but it definitely has me nervous. I'm shooting a Winchester Apex 45, I'm shooting 120 grains of BH, 200FTX sabotless, .060 vege wad. I am extremely impressed with this load and it chronos out consistently at nearly 2400 fps. I'm going to try some more loads as time permits but so far I really like the BH and especially shooting sabotless, it's very consistent.
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Post by sw on Dec 16, 2009 20:52:32 GMT -5
CCIms are a little hotter than the Win209s but just as clean if not more. The Fed209A is hotter yet , yet has a lot of build up. I shot Win 209s for a few 1000 shots in smokeless but went to the slightly hotter CCIm, with it's extremely strong cup, and have not looked back for the past few 1000 shots. I'd consider trying them. Seems like BH209 has some smokeless characteristics including needing a hot ignition and a tight load. Both seem impt.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2009 11:40:47 GMT -5
I'll try to figure a way to get my knurling more consistent, making sure each load is equally tight. Maybe that is the problem. I'll keep shooting and experimenting and see what all I can come up with, I hope to retire it for a smokeless 40 next year.
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Post by sw on Dec 17, 2009 19:13:26 GMT -5
I'll try to figure a way to get my knurling more consistent, making sure each load is equally tight. Maybe that is the problem. I'll keep shooting and experimenting and see what all I can come up with, I hope to retire it for a smokeless 40 next year. I knurl with 2 bastard files. One is coarse and the other medium. I wish I had 2 coarse files and will try to find another coarse file. Both RB and I have found that too tight a sabotless bullet does not provide good accuracy - don't know why. However, a moderately tight bullet does help. In smokeless shooting, duplex helps get the pressure up quickly but that's not as easy here. I might try 5gs of T-7(or some other easily ignitable fast sub powder) under a load of BH209 that is reduced by 5 gs also to get sure ignition if 1) you continue to have any mis-fires, 2) if BH209 used in this duplex load is more accurate that other loads or is more desirable to use for some reason, 3) it just gives you peace of mind that it WILL go off when needed. This isn't a recommendation, just a consideration. You can bet I will try this load myself in the Knight Wolverine if I ever have a mis-fire which I expect I will due to the ignition system. Do consider the CCIm. it will help.
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Post by nmaineron on Dec 18, 2009 14:53:21 GMT -5
I finally got a chance to fire my rifle with the new and improved breech plug and to redeem the Blackhorn.The plug worked great and the Blackhorn fired off great so it must have dried out OK.
Plus, I learned a lesson.Seems that all the times that I have taken things apart I must have turned my bolt in the wrong direction,probably more than once so when I went to shoot this morning I had two dry fired primers,like now what,when I looked at the primers there was very little indent markings.I left scratching my head as to what was going on.It was too cold to stay and play with it outside so I headed home.When I removed the bolt I could see right off what the issue was so I tightened it up and took her back out.Everything is well...for now!
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Post by sw on Dec 18, 2009 21:15:04 GMT -5
:)Great. Hope it stays that way. Merry Christmas.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2009 8:54:57 GMT -5
Had another bad experience with the BH last weekend, I loaded my gun early before daylight, (120 gr of BH) put tape over the end of the barrel and stuck in a CCI primer and went hunting, granted it was cold and there was a heavy snowfall with alot of wind all day but just before dark a coyote entered a field I was watching, I centered the crosshairs on the yote and squeezed the trigger, nothing! Stuck in another primer and the load fizzled out the end of the barrel like a dud bottle rocket, the yote stood out there and laughed! So when I got home the whole box of CCI primers went in the garbage and I made a trip to Cabela's and picked up some CCI M primers and some Federal primers. I hope this solves my problem. I assume I had to have gotten a bad batch of primers, I can't see having this many misfires. Muzzleloader season is fast approaching so I will do some serious shooting and testing over the next week. I'll try a saboted load as well if I still have an issue. I'm pretty confident and hopeful it was just some bad primers. Truthfully most of them didn't even sound right when I fired them. I'm not giving up yet on the BH.
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Post by sw on Dec 25, 2009 9:22:44 GMT -5
Ohioguy, Remember, CCI 209s and CCIm 209s are very different. Win 209s are quite hot, CCIs are less powerful, but CCIms and Fed 209As are hotter yet. I think CCIms have 2 advantages over Fed209As: much stronger cup and less fouling of BP. I would be concerned about usage of CCI 209s to ignite anything that could be hard to ignite but wouldn't be concerned with CCIms. Blackhawk 7204 has cautioned me that the play that exists in a slamfire system would make Blackhorn 209 unreliable. This applies to my Wolverine 45, unfortunately.
Open question - is the ignition of a Winchester Apex 45 more like a slamfire or a closed bolt/firing pin system? I'm not up on current smokey MLers.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2009 10:43:46 GMT -5
It's sealed pretty well, it closes up like an omega or kodiak pro, it swings down and up with the trigger assembly. I have always used Win 209 primers with no problems in the past, I had never tried BH 209 or standard CCI primers, I will try the CCI M's and the federals and see what I get with that, but te breech does seal up fairly tight, tighter than most mzl's I would suspect. Thanks for the tips, I'll keep plugging away. I really like the BH's performance and cleanliness and I love shooting it sabotless, hopefully I can get it all worked out.
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Post by sw on Dec 25, 2009 12:34:29 GMT -5
hopefully I can get it all worked out. I bet you can. Make sure your sabotless load is at least moderately tight. I've found that really tight sabotless loads are not accurate, at least for me or RB over on the smokeless board.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2009 13:04:54 GMT -5
We'll do, thanks
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2010 11:01:18 GMT -5
Well I made it back to the shooting bench with my Apex 45 and BH209 powder, this time I was armed with Federal Primers. I started with a clean gun and high hopes of no misfires. I started shooting with 120gr of powder just like I had sighted it in before, my first shot went off without a hitch and hit exactly where it was supposed to, I dry swabbed the barrel which I normally always do between shots, I continued and got off a good 5 shot group without a problem. Before the next session I dry swabbed the barrel with several patches to get it as clean as possible then began another 5 shot group, I got thru that 5 round group without a hitch and again shot a very impressive group, I dry swabbed the barrel clean as possible again and began another round, on the second shot of this group which would be shot 12 it misfired, I inserted another primer and this time it went off, shot 13 and 14 did the same thing, misfired the first time and went off the second. So I dry swabbed the barrel as clean as possible again, snapped a couple of primers thru to try to dislodge any debree from the breech plug swabbed it again and had the same thing again, misfire first time, went off te second. So I took some advice and tried a duplex load to try to help ignite the BH, I now loaded 110gr of BH into my measured and 10gr of 777 on top of that and dumped it down the barrel, bang, it went off perfectly, so I repeated this for 8 more shots and it went off without hesitation and did not seem to affect my accuracy at all. So to be on the safe side I think all my future loads will be duplex. Immediately after shooting the Apex, I brought out the Optima Pro 50 and loaded it up the same way, 110BH, 10 777, I shot it 10 times back to back dry swabbing between shots and it shot really well with the 250ftx and crushed rib sabot. It also went off every time without a hitch. Maybe the BH is so finicky that it requires a fairly clean breech plug but yesterday proved to me that with the help of a little 777 that it'll go off even after a dozen shots. I'm shooting the Apex 45 with a 200gr ftx sabotless with .060 cardboard wad under it and getting MOA accuracy or even better at 100 yards, and pushing it around 2400 fps. I am very impressed with this load for ballistics and accuracy although I did fire 2 195 barnes (last two shots) and nearly cut the exact same hole so they as well may be something to consider. I did get a fair amount of shots off before I had a misfire but I feel more comfortable with the 10gr of 777 setting it off. So if anyone else experiences any problems with misfires with the BH, I'd highly recommend giving duplex a try. Whoever it was who recommended the duplex to me on here, thank you very much, that seems to be the ticket. P.S. even with only 10gr of 777, believe it or not I could feel a slight crud ring down near the breech plug, that's the only downfall but it wasn't nearly as bad as a full 777 load. Hope this helps someone and thanks for all the help I've been given. Happy shooting.
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Post by nmaineron on Jan 23, 2010 22:35:43 GMT -5
Well I thought that I had finally had things worked out with the Blackhorn after I added the CCI Mag primers,probably 20 or so shots with no hang ups or dry fires.All of my shooting has been in cold weather,below freezing, so it makes it tough to stay for a long shooting session.Yesterday I had a wierd shot that I thought was just the primer going off but it was different.I approched it as if just the primer lit.My experience has been that the primer would drive the load up the barrel an inch, so I tried to push the load back down. When I inserted the ramrod it dropped to the bottom.I pulled the breech plug and the barrel was empty.The bullet didn't make it to the target about 40 yds away and I couldn't find it in the snow.How does just a bit of the powder ignite? I am sure the primer was up to snuff.This is an isolated case but one I haven't ever experienced before.
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Post by nmaineron on Jan 23, 2010 22:44:04 GMT -5
Ohio, I am interested in your duplex load but why did you put the T7 on top of the Blackhorn instead of in first?
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