Your procedure to develop a load?

[grelber]

Hi Folks,
Am a confused new owner with a smile and a sore shoulder and 2.5" best groups (5/8 at 25 yd) so far.
Was wondering if anyone had sort of gotten load development down to a process. It is a bit whelming (overwhelming will be next week) to get started figuring out which sabot/ powder/bullet/charge weight from ground zero.
Perhaps there is a process of elimation that works sort of like; first pick a bullet that is working well for several others, then pick a powder and charge weight that is working well for several others, now find which sabbot works best, now play with charge weight. Etc. I don't know if there is a best process or best component evaluation sequence but figured this would be the place to find out.
Other thing that was on my mind. I assume that there is nothing wrong with evaluating groups at 25 yards & then proceeding to greater distance after you've found what looks most promising at short range.
Best Regards

[tar12]

Welcome!
Have you visited the Tips & Hints section? There is a wealth of info. there at your disposal.If none of that flips your switch and you have something else in mind,ask away, we have people here who are absolutely full ;D of info.Let us know what your goals are.100yds?200yds?Preferred bullet weight?Velocities you are wanting to achieve?Unless you are using open sights,skip the 25 yd mark and start at 50 yds.BTW,what are you currently shooting?

[Dave W]

Nov 30, 2009 20:02:16 GMT -5 grelber said:

Hi Folks,
Am a confused new owner with a smile and a sore shoulder and 2.5" best groups (5/8 at 25 yd) so far.
Was wondering if anyone had sort of gotten load development down to a process. It is a bit whelming (overwhelming will be next week) to get started figuring out which sabot/ powder/bullet/charge weight from ground zero.
Perhaps there is a process of elimation that works sort of like; first pick a bullet that is working well for several others, then pick a powder and charge weight that is working well for several others, now find which sabbot works best, now play with charge weight. Etc. I don't know if there is a best process or best component evaluation sequence but figured this would be the place to find out.
Other thing that was on my mind. I assume that there is nothing wrong with evaluating groups at 25 yards & then proceeding to greater distance after you've found what looks most promising at short range.
Best Regards

Assuming you have cleaned the gun thoroughly, checked to make sure the front base screw is not bottoming out on the barrel threads and made sure the front base is not contacting the recoil lug.

Pick your bullet and keep in mind when you do so what type of velocity you are looking to shoot. Some bullets have a rep for fragging at close range. IMO an excellent choice would be the .458 300gr Rem with a Harvester Black Crush Rib or the MMP orange sabot. Great bullet for accuracy and it is a rifle bullet, not a pistol bullet. If you opt for .452 bullets, there are a multitude of sabots available. I suggest checking for sabot fit on a fouled barrel. A tight loading combo on a clean barrel may end up being nearly impossible to load once a few shots are fired, especially if you end up shooting dirty with no swabbing.

Once you have the bullet and sabot figured out I weigh charges in 1 grain increments, starting low and progressing up in charge weight. I shoot the entire range of charge weights with the swabbing method ( dry patches, alcohol followed by clean, or Rem 40X bore cl. followed by clean) of your choice. I then duplicate on another range session after the plug has been cleaned but with no swabbing at all. I would not clean the barrel after the first session, that way there is some plastic fouling in the bore, unless you swab with a solvent. This should give you a good idea of an ideal charge weight from which to tweak, and whether the gun likes to be shot clean or dirty, after comparing the group sizes of each session.

JMO 25yds is not going to tell you much. I would shoot at least at 100yds, further if the shooter is competent and comfortable. I prefer 200yds, it sorts the good from the bad quickly.

[artjr338wm]

Both Tar12 and Dave W have given you excellent advice so far. If you will excuse me, I am going to re-state tar12's advice of visiting the "Tips And Hints" board at this website. You will spend a considerable amount of time there reading and then digesting what you have read, but it will be time well spent. What you read there will allow you to have a quite good grasp on understanding what makes a 10ML-II work and why and once you do, you will now have developed a basic, repeat basic knowledge of 10ML-IIs and a starting point so to speak of learning what you will need to maximize your 10ML-IIs potential.

I would also like to again re-state the importance of cleaning your 10ML-IIs bore and breach plug until both are 100% clean. IMHO in order to develop your most accurate loads for your 10ML-II you must start each session with a completely clean barrel and breach plug only then will you maintain a good base line to work from.


Before I offer any advice concerning load development, you did not list in your first post what components you are at present using and shooting out of your 10ML-II. You need to post the type of the fallowing:

<>Bullet type, OD, and weight in grains
<>Powder type and charge weight in grains
<>Sabot maker and type used
<>Type of 209 primer used

Also find out if you do not already know, what powders suitable for use in the 10ML-II are regularly available OTC near where you live.

I will tell you powders, primers, bullets and sabots to look for that have worked excellently in my 10ML-II as well as having a well earned reputation for working well in most 10ML-IIs and are usually easy to find.
I am [glow=red,2,300]NOT TELLING YOU TO BUY THEM[/glow], but only to first see if you can get them OTC.

Powders that worked excellently in mine and many other 10ML-IIs
<>IMR-4198
<>IMR/SR-4759
<>H-4198
<>VV/N120 I will caution you that N120 can be quite hard to get
One other powder that has worked extremely well in a great many 10ML-IIs and is a Savage recommended powder and is also a powder many here more knowledgeable than myself suggest is a excellent choice for a beginner such as yourself consider is AA XMP5744. I never tried it as it does not yield the higher velocities I crave, but it does have a well earned rep for being extremely easy to ignite and produce vary good accuracy.

Bullets that shoot well that are cheap to use:
Hornady .452" 250 and 300grn XTPs Avoid the XTP/Mags
Remington .458 (for use in the 45/70) 300grn bullets
Hornady .458" (for use in the 45/70) 300grn bullets

Sabots that work well
MMP-HPH 12, HPH 24, and 3-petal EZ for use W/.452" bullets
MMP Orange sabot for use with .458" bullets

Harvester Black crushed ribbed sabots and Black short black sabot for use with .452" sabots
Harvester Red crushed ribbed sabot and also the black crushed ribbed sabot for use with .458" bullets.

Any of the fallowing 209 primers will give you excellent results
Winchester 209
Federal 209A
CCI 209M

There are many, many more bullets that shoot extremely well out of the 10ML-II, but the three I listed are to my knowledge the cheapest that also have been proven to shoot well.


Lastly one of the most important things you can do to help you develop accurate loads as quickly as possible is to keep as accurate as you can range notes. I made up on my computer my own shooting evaluation sheets that include every component that makes up my loads and the ability to record how they shoot and perform. I also have note book that I record what I do and experience at every range session and even more importantly, what if anything new I learn from each range session. I also made up again on my computer separate component and equipment evaluation sheets strictly for the sabots, bullets, and equipment that I specifically bought and use for loading my 10ML-II.

This might sound complicated or requiring allot of effort, but it really does not, and when compared with how much time, effort and $$$ doing so will save you over the long run VS not keeping accurate and concise notes will, you will realize its not that much effort after all.

Post what components your shooting with and we will take it from there.

Arthur.

[grelber]

Folks,
Thanks.
Am reading and digesting. I think I hit the suggested prep work fairly well (study what's on Tip & Tricks, prepare the gun well, document what happens at the range), but I will go back over before my next shooting trip and maybe pick up more of what was missed on the first pass.
I did not clean the barrel between shots on my last trip & I will add this to my routine. Will give me something else to do while waiting 6 minutes for barrel cooling.

My goal with this gun is to get a deer load flying at or better than 3" groups at 200 yards. If I can hit this bogey then it may be fun to keep pushing and see if the gun and I can go farther, but the pressure will be off and it will just be about learning & enjoying.

My best lookling group so far was with the following components;
Bullet - Hornady 250 GR HP/XTP
Winchester w209 primer
AA 5744 42.5 grains
MMP black sabot (the one reccomended in the Savage manual)
MMP balistic sub base

Testing needs to be repeated, before I consider it truth. Based on very limited shooting (27 shots and my shoulder was done).
44 grains seemed ugly with a variety of sabots & lead.
41 & 42.5 seemed interesting but I didn't have enough reduced charges made up to do much shooting.
MMP H12's & MMP "black" with ballistic sub base seemed promising with 250 grain xtp & seemed like correct fit in barrel.

Additional items now on hand for testing include;
Sabots
MMp black, MMP BSB, MMP hph24, mmp hph12, Hornady black high velocity #6751
Lead
Hornady 250 gr sst & xtp, Hornady 300 gr xtp,

I'm not married to any component or invested in a large quantity.

I appreciate the input all of you have provided.

[bigmoose]

Here what I would do:
Start with a book load, not max powder, and work till you find a load your rifle likes, what is working for other folks may not work for you.
Your rifle will tell you what it wants, once you are shooting good, thats the time to start experimenting, what size animal, do you need max loads.
My recommendations would be worthless, if you are hunting Deer sized animals.
My favorite load out of my .50 is 350gr Barnes X bullet, 68 to 70 grs of H4198, depending on the temperature, not much of a Deer load

[edge]

I have two Tips for you.
You have a Go To load that is accurate for you and your current procedure.
Write down exactly what you do for this load to be accurate.
ALWAYS keep a half dozen of these Go To loads in your range box.
If your rifle starts acting up, STOP and wait 15 minutes and try your Go To load. If it does not hit where it should then you may suspect that the rifle needs work and it is not the load....also remember that it is often the "Nut behind the wheel" that is at fault

Second, don't adjust your scope unless you come up with a NEW Go To load!

I find that accurate loads will almost always print close ( +- 2 inches ) horizontally from known good loads.

If I get a good group but it is 4 inches off horizontally I find that load to be suspicious and won't use it unless I can go up and down a grain or two in powder and they ALL group together!

If I had to pick one person to try to reproduce at the range it would be Richard. Look at his procedure and range notes. He may not have the best groups, but he has the best set of notes that I have ever seen ( apologies to others with the same thoroughness, but Richard posts the most notes with his range work )

edge.

[grelber]

Just finished a second read of the tips & hints section. It means a lot more after a trip & some shooting & pondering than it does before.
Between what was there and what is here I think I've got a lot to go on now and just need to burn some powder & see where this takes me.

Thanks Folks!

[onecardchuck]

Good luck grelber and enjoy the ride, because it is frustrating and mind blowing along the route but is a heck of a lot of fun and the best ride I have been on since starting bow hunting. Also don't be afraid to post with questions there are a lot of helpful people on the site that are always willing to help.

[sgtk]

Dec 1, 2009 20:28:07 GMT -5 onecardchuck said:

it is frustrating and mind blowing

That's a true statement!!!!

I've loaded for pistols, rifles and shotguns all my adult life, and I was never so perplexed as my first few range trips with the 10ML.

I'm just starting to get it a little now and it is very rewarding. I must warn you though - the savage bug is very contagious.

[wilmsmeyer]

To develope a load I start with goals: Assume that accuracy is the main goal...then go from there.

Speed and/or trajectory goals: They go hand in hand. Some like to point and shoot out to 250 with no worries on holdover/under. In this case (like me) speed is essential. So...if you have a .50 you are going to need powerful loads and as good a BC as possible while maintaining stability. You will have recoil too. SO....get your gun fixed up to handle it. If you are targets shooting and not a hunter, get a recoil rest too.

Once you have the goal you must choose components. Fast and powerful will bring some powders into your radar screen and drop others off of it. Fast and powerful will steer you toward pointy, maybe heavier and hopefully stronger bullets.

For sabots, get 2-3 that offer a tight fit. Keep loading procedures constant. Start with 1 powder and pick a charge and shoot a few combo's of a few bullets and different sabots. Take the one that show promise and see it you find repeatability. If so, increase powder and see if the accuracy remains as speed increases. Stay in recommended ranges.

If that powder didn't pan out, start again with a different one.

Once that is accomplished, do things that would mirror conditions found during the season. Leave the gun loaded a few days and shoot into a target over a chrony and plot results over a period of time. POI, speed. load your gun after cleaning and plot the same things...see if the cold barrel shot is in...or very close...to the group. Shoot when it's warm and when it's cool/cold.

You are getting the picture. Load developement doesn't happen over a weekend but a few seasons...a bunch of targets....hopefully a few deer. It can be fun or frustrating....and depending on your budget...expensive. Usually, during the process you will have at least something you feel good enough to hunt with.

Ths isn't the only way.....but one I would recommend. Keep in mind, I'm a fairly simple person.