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Post by ozark on Nov 13, 2009 15:37:41 GMT -5
I am aware that my disagreeing will not change the method of determining group size. If you shot four shots in the same hole and the fifth one was two inches away center to center your group size would be 2 MOA if your distance was 100 yards. This system doesn't give you credit for four perfect shots but severely penalizes you for the one bad one. Total distance of separation is two inches but average dispersion is two divided by five which I believe would be .4 MOA. We used to make a triangle of the three widest shots and divide that distance by the number of shots. I believe the rifle/shooter that stacks four and then gets one wide is a better pair than the rifle/shooters that sprays all five bullets in a smaller circle. I think my view has merit but I have doubts about it. LOL
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Post by whelenman on Nov 13, 2009 19:17:30 GMT -5
That's why you always have a coin to cover the errant shot when you take a picture. ;D When I was fireforming brass for my 6BRX target rifle I shot a 25 shot group that formed one large hole in the paper.....Except for that one shot to the left about an inch. Sometimes you never know where those come from but they're a plague to a good group. I just want to know what happened to cause that one shot that ruins the group. It's that one that goes wide that keeps us trying harder and coming back in search of all in the same hole. To me the four and one shows the rifle has the potential for greatness if not for the shooter/reloaders problems.
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Post by deadeye on Nov 13, 2009 19:56:05 GMT -5
ozark,are you calling one a "mulligan"!!!!lol, it is what it is ///simplified-you are what you shoot! ;D ;D ;D
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Post by artjr338wm on Dec 10, 2009 12:02:16 GMT -5
Ozark, For years and years now I have more often than I care to admit sat and thought about just what method of determining a STOCK FACTORY HUNTING rifles over all accuracy is the fairest and most sensible to use.
I own a 100% stock factory M700 in 338wm that has fired 3-shot 100yrd groups that varied in size from less than 3/8" with my reloads to never larger than 1.5" using the one and only box of factory ammo I have ever shot out of it.. And using my newest hand loads has not shot a group at 100, 200, or 300yrds over MOA and has more than a few 100yrd groups below .5"MOA and same for 200yrds.
So what does a shooter do when they turn out some (for a 100% factory hunting rifle) superbly accurate groups in terms of classifying the rifle? Based on my long experience with my 338wm I strongly feel it is fair to classify it as a .5" MOA rifle based on the over dozen groups I have shot with it using different reloads all at or below .5"-MOA.
I simply do not accept some peoples standard of basing your rifles over all accuracy on five or ten shot groups as what does five shots prove that three did not for accuracy as it applies in hunting? except for possibly confirming your level of shooting ability and not the rifle itself.
Shooting off of my Stony Point shooting sticks I am able to keep my 300yrd groups below 4". Granted I only am able to achieve this level of accuracy through a goodly amount of practice though and if my pulse is normal.
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Post by ozark on Dec 11, 2009 10:01:06 GMT -5
artjr. While one group of shooters consistently get good shooting rifles another consistently gets rifles that will not shoot well. Is that luck or a difference in shooting skills?
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Post by dougedwards on Dec 11, 2009 20:09:34 GMT -5
If I shoot four shots in the same hole and then another two inches away from the hole I will be forever wondering what caused that errant shot?? Since I am not a benchrest shooter my quest has been to develop a rifle and a shooter to shoot consistently. I would rather spread five shots within two inches of circle than have four in one hole and one two inches away. That one deviation bothers me if I am unaware of what caused it. I begin to wonder if the barrel heated up or was it caused by an inconsistent loading? I wonder if the errant shot might be more exxagerated next time? If so, by how much?
IMO this MOA stuff is over-rated. If your first two shots are two inches apart.....that group will never get better than that no matter how many following shots you shoot. Ozark makes a good point!
Doug
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Post by northny on Dec 15, 2009 8:57:45 GMT -5
Normally, I use center to center of widest shots in 5 shot group. But with one large exception. My favorite hunting rifle I judge by a two shot group fired in quick sucession. (typically hunting situation) It is a light barrel sporter (winchester mod 70 featherweight). I have had it 30 years, and the first several years I tried to get it to shoot small groups. I finally realized it shoots the first shot to same point each time, then walks up with each sucessive shot. The second shot is 3/4 inch high, and slightly left. Each shot is higher and wider. But conventional measures this gun is not accurate. Yet every year, the first shot is 2 inch high at 12 oclock. I do my two shot sight in, (shoot my one inch "two shot group") and I am ready to go hunting. Now this rifle can probably be improved. But I don't see the need. I never shoot five shot groups hunting. I only load three cartridges, and have never gone to the third. I have not adjusted the sight in 7 years, which was last time I changed loads. I have thought about shooting a five shot group with a 30 minute wait between shots (so I always have a cold barrel), and it would likey shoot sub MOA. But what would be the point? So although I tend to judge rifles by typical 5 shot group measure, I also put a lot of weight on how a rifle will hold its point of impact over time. To me a rifle that will shot a small group but the point of impact moves frequently has no use. ( I have two words for rifles like that, FOR SALE.) I learned two things working with this lightweight rifle. First, to keep records of my range sessions with each rifle. You do see trends. Second, after ten years or so, a wood stock finally stops believeing it is a tree and resigns itself to being a stock and stops moving poi I guess in summary, I add the time component to accurracy, and look at group size and point of impact over time. At every range session, I always get myself to focus by judging the first shot of the day, and would that big buck have died or run away.
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Post by ozark on Dec 15, 2009 11:12:28 GMT -5
northny, according to my brand of thinking your brand of thinking has all the logic any hunter needs. But we need all the paper holes to keep the economy rolling.
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Post by northny on Dec 15, 2009 16:22:55 GMT -5
Then between punching holes in papers, clanging plates, busting (or not) clay pigeons, plinking, and just playing with various rifles and pistols, I am doing my part.
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Post by Tarheel on Dec 20, 2009 10:15:57 GMT -5
If you put 4 shots in a ragged hole and the fifth one hits off, it was more than likely human error, especially if you handload. I would shoot another 5 shot group after the barrel completely cooled and see if it happens again. If so, and it was on the fifth shot, I would guess it was the barrel heating up. For hunting applications I like 3-shot groups. Also, I have set-in a number of rifles for other hunters and have had mixed results. Ex: I shot a rifle that shot about MOA at 100yds 3-shots and the owner couldn't get better than 2" at 100yds with the same rifle. Conversely, I've had rifles that I shot 1.5 MOA and a friend got under MOA. IMO the human error is the biggest factor in rifle accuracy, not to say that you can't get a lemon rifle, especially if shooting handloads with a tweaked rifle.
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Post by cfvickers on Dec 20, 2009 22:37:27 GMT -5
if you want under an inch and you buy a kimber you either a) got screwed, or b) bought a kimber tactical rifle. Had several people shoot any of the three Kimbers my dad has bought and none, I repeat, NONE have shot well regardless of who's pulling the trigger, or what I loaded in it. Best group with the current one is 1.9 inches. i agree if you hand load and you have a flyer then it is probably load consistency.
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Post by Tarheel on Dec 20, 2009 23:47:50 GMT -5
If I had a gun that wouldn't shoot under 1.9" at a hundred she would be sold unless she had sentimental value. You may have already checked but how is the barrel crown or does it need bedding? I thought a Kimber 8400 would be a shooter. What calibers are the Kimbers? Just out of curiosity.
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Post by ozark on Dec 21, 2009 20:52:27 GMT -5
If I lived in the country I would place a target 100 yards out and shoot one shot on all days ending in a Y for seven days. I would mark them daily. That would be a seven shot group I could declare the hunting accuracy of my rifle and self.
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Post by whelenman on Dec 23, 2009 9:15:37 GMT -5
Here's a group photo you would like Ozark. I've got a 358 Winchester built with a Douglas barrel on a 98 Mauser action that I use quite a bit for hunting. It's a 20 inch carbine length rifle and is just my favorite for carrying in the woods. It just feels good! I shoot a lot each year but with other rifles. For the past three years I've only checked the zero for this rifle with one shot at 200 yards. The target is a 3 inch circle. The first two years looked so similar I posted it on the TnDeer webside and someone made the comment that the group wasn't centered so I clicked it up one and to the side one before sighting this year. Here's the three years. Folks, I don't shoot this good with a 2-7 scope and the load probably isn't capable of this kind of accuracy but good things do happen if you shoot enough. I'll take it though. It's been a lucky three year zeroing stretch.
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Post by ozark on Dec 23, 2009 9:41:51 GMT -5
Yes, I do like that. It is all that is needed to have full confidence in that first shot. Thanks
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