Wednesday range session (.45) with

[Richard]

Herman and Bill. We had to switch from Tuesday to Wednesday as Bill had a stress test yesterday
Tried going up two grains on the primary and down one on the booster. See #1 Apparantly too much primary as I got some flames coming out the barrel and the load shot slower than at 15/57. Accuracy was good.
On target #2, I went up one grain on the booster and down on on the primary to 16/56. This gave similar speeds as the 15/57. Accuracy was basically good at 100 yds. except for one flyer with the XTP's. I then shot the same load at 300 yards only substituting SST's The first three shots were in 1.869". I hated to mess up the "looks of that group" so I shot the other two shots on an adjoining bullseye When I moved them over at home (via a straight edge and caliper) I wound up with a FIVE shot 2.657" and Four within the same group as the three.
While the group printed 2.5" + at 100 yards, it impacted 1.5" high at 300 while using the first hash mark below the crosshair. That hash mark subtends about 3" at 300 yards. So, at 2.5"+ at 100, I could use the center crosshair and be only 2 to 3" low at 300!
The remainder of the loads are self explanatory and I gotta get down to the church for supper
Richard

[ET]

Richard

I always enjoy following your post but for some reason can't locate mention of yardage for groups 5 & 6?

There must be a good supper waiting for you.

Ed

[DBinNY]

Richard, I think you need to work on something else. You've got this one mastered! I'll bet supper went down easy. I wish your barrel was 25" for direct comparison purposes. Congratulations!

[Richard]

ET........Just an oversight on my part I forgot to write "100 yds." on my description sheet.
DBinNY....Your right, I have found a number of combinations that are working out very well. Actually, Herman shot one load 15/55 110/130 that I had gotten mid 2900's out of, yesterday and had some shots hit around 3,000 of the first two, but then backed down into the 2900 range with his 25" Pac-Nor. I think it also helps to have those shots run over the same chronograph so as to compare apples to apples. (which we did not do) He also had one shot drop to 2500 and hit way low on his target which indicates a stressed sabot. I don't stand over Herman and see just how long he leaves the cool rod in, or whether he uses it on every shot. That could be the cause. Maybe Herman will jump in with an explanation?
By and large, the duplex's with N-110 and N-130 in that general area of 15/55 (give or take a grain or two either direction) have been working very good for me. I might try pursuing more combinations with N-110 and H-322 since I own eight pounds of it ;D. I just love the speed of these 200 gr. bullets. They are so flat shooting, you can almost leave your range finders and ballistic-plex scopes at home! One crosshair is about all that is necessary unless Plains or Bean Field hunting.
I will be away from the computer and ML next week to visit the grand kids up in NJ but when I get back, I will be playing with more bullets (195 Barnes) and combinations.
Maybe when I'm up there I will call Edge and we can have tea and discuss recoil lug thickness;) (just foolin' __ I do appreciate your effort with this board) Respectfully disagreeing on subjects allows for a lively discussion and brings out many different concepts!

Richard

[DBinNY]

Have a good trip and I'm looking forward to your future testing.

[Richard]

Thanks DB........I sure miss my old hunting grounds up there by Addison NY
Richard

[edge]

Have you tried to up the N120 charges?

Quickload would predict a 200 grain bullet should be around 2,800 fps with 65 grains of N120...and that would only make a pressure of around 36-40kpsi.
With an average of 2,644 that is probably closer to 30-35kpsi.

Quickload would predict that 72 grains would exceed 3,000fps and be only around 41-45kpsi.

N120 may just need a better seal than that bullet can give as a straight load or in a moderate duplex.

edge.

[Jon]

Richard, Which way do you go to get to NJ.? If you go through Pa. any where near to me. I'm in the Allentown area. I would love to buy you lunch or dinner and I have a project to talk to you about that you may or may not be willing to take on? I hope you have a great visit.
Jon

[Richard]

Jon.....actually I go right thru Allentown on 78. The only problem is, its right around 5:00 pm and we still have to get to my sisters house. Sorry, I really do not have time to stop. I also have a cousin just off 78 around Pattenburg and we rarely get a chance to stop and see them.
Edge....if you look at my sheet: #5 target. I used 65 gr. of N-120 with the 200 gr. FTX sabotless and I only shot three shots since the group was not looking that good? I also tried the same charge last week with the 250 SST and results were just so-so!
Richard

[edge]

Not sure I was clear, but 65 grains of N120 with a 200 grain bullet is anemic @ 2800 fps! Your velocity was 150 fps below anemic .....IMO.

edge.

[Richard]

OK, I see your point. Shooting 65 gr. of 120 with a 250 gr. bullet probably produces pressures more in line with what it should be. The 200 gr. bullet is too light to build pressure CF thinking Ligtht bullet = faster speed
Richard

[edge]

Correct, more powder may help or up load #6

I would probably shoot straight 70 grains and if it were not in the mid 2900's then I'd start dropping N120 and adding back 5744

If you want 3,000 with a 200 grain bullet that load will get you there ( or very close) with relatively low pressure.

edge.

[Richard]

Edge........I will probably try something on the order of 5 gr. 5744 under 60 gr. of N-120 for starters. 70 of N-120 might be a little too much for the 23" barrel to fully burn? Right now, I will not get too serious with N-120 since it seems to be in short supply or non-existent? I do have a couple of pounds, but it will not last forever. On the other hand, I am seeing N-130 on the shelf quite frequently. And, I would like to get more speed out of H-322 as that is everywhere. Wish I had a little more barrel to work with Thanks for your insight
Richard

[kevin k]

Richard id love to see ya work out some loads with h-322 and 4759 or 5744. kevin k

[edge]

Sept 25, 2009 19:03:00 GMT -5 Richard said:

Edge........I will probably try something on the order of 5 gr. 5744 under 60 gr. of N-120 for starters. 70 of N-120 might be a little too much for the 23" barrel to fully burn?

SNIP

Do as you please, but N120 would be about the perfect powder for your shortened barrel. You just are not giving it the kick that it needs!

You look for speed and N120 will get you 3,000 fps!
You want reasonable pressure and N120 will keep you in the low 40's ( once you boost it a bit )!
You want your powder to burn in a 23 inch barrel and N120 will burn about 95% in the first 13.5 inches of bullet travel ( once you boost it )!

Perhaps since your barrel has a slight bulge you would prefer to move the pressure curve down the bore a bit. N120 will reach peak pressure in the first 1.2 inches of bullet travel...even though that pressure will be relatively low....
edge.

[herman]

Shooting richards load of 110 (15gr)/130 (57 gr) This is what I got on th chrony #1 was ( I am recalling these from memory but they are very close to what I got) 3130fps,#2 was 2557 fps,which I think I blowed a sabot because it hit about a foot low and way left on the target board,#1 was about 4 inches above the dot.#3 was 3026 fps and it hit about 4 inches above the dot about an inch from the first shot.Now I don't know how accurate my chrony is but with 15/55 grs I was getting a little over 2900 fps.
After blowing a sabot I didn't think it was necessary to shoot it over richards chrony.And plus it kicked like a mule,I wasn't useing the lead sled.I did use the cool rod between shots because I wanted to see how acurate this load was.My barrel is 25 in where richards is 23 inches.

[Richard]

Edge........I'm not doubting what you say, I just would like to "sneak" up on it vs. jumping in with both feet! ;D I may load maybe two or three gradual increased vials.
While we are on the subject, RB had mentioned once that H-4198 should not be duplexed in the .45?? Yet N-120 is of similar burning rate? H-4198 was not being used to duplex 300 gr. bullets in the .50 yet I did and got good results which RB seemed to corroborate? Maybe it builds pressure faster than N-120?
Richard

[edge]

Sept 26, 2009 19:14:58 GMT -5 Richard said:

Edge........I'm not doubting what you say, I just would like to "sneak" up on it vs. jumping in with both feet! ;D I may load maybe two or three gradual increased vials.
While we are on the subject, RB had mentioned once that H-4198 should not be duplexed in the .45?? Yet N-120 is of similar burning rate? H-4198 was not being used to duplex 300 gr. bullets in the .50 yet I did and got good results which RB seemed to corroborate? Maybe it builds pressure faster than N-120?
Richard

I would suggest that you check with various sources to try to determine where your pressure is. IMO, it is very low!
Since 70 grains would not produce high pressure I suggested that as your first course of action. Powder weight alone can help to boost pressure.

Perhaps you should try the web calculator that RB has used in the past, the CUP Calculator.
Perhaps the Powley calculator, or whatever you like.
Plug in your powder and velocities and see what peak pressure they predict.

To your second point on H4198.
True, N120 is similar and they both should yield good results on their own ( with H4198 reaching peak pressure faster and not burning completely according to Quickload ), but you have POOR ignition!
Duplex is not supposed to exceed the proper pressure, only just to give it a boost to achieve it!

If 70 grains of N120 should send your 200 grain bullet out the muzzle around 3,000fps and with a pressure of 40kpsi and you only get 2,800 fps then you can bet that you are not burning the powder properly too!
Your 70 grain N120 duplex load should only bring you up to the 3,000 fps!

If you use a calculator that need water volume:
70 grains of N120 takes up about 83.1 grains of H2O;
70 grains of H4198 takes up about 80.8 grains of H2O.

edge.

PS Quickload predicts H4198 about 2kpsi higher than N120 and has the peak pressure around 0.90 inches of bullet travel with 70 grains.

[Richard]

Edge........Thanks for your reply. All testing will be on hold for a week as I make the semi-annual trip back to the Garden State
I have pre-loaded 10 shots of: 5 gr. 5744/65 gr. N-120 and will give the results in a week and a half. Along with tweaking with other combinations.
Richard