Hunt
Button Buck
Subsistence Hunter
Posts: 20
|
Post by Hunt on Sept 17, 2009 22:50:14 GMT -5
I see that a Bergara 45-70 barrel has been used to build a smokeless .45 cal. ML. Well guys I would not use any barrel from: BPI/CVA/Dikar S Coop, Ltd./Bergara Barrels (all the same company). The reason why is the poor track record of the products put out by this company over the last 15 years. Check it out yourself. www.chuckhawks.com/muzzleloading_tragedy.htmwww.cvaguncases.com/www.chuckhawks.com/dangerous_muzzleloaders.htmEven though! Ed Shilen was brought out of 15 years of retirement to make a commercial for Bergara and given the title of consultant, is not enough to make me forget dangerous junk sold to us in this country. I DO NOT TRUST THIS COMPANY NO MATTER WHAT THEY CHANGE THEIR NAME TO. |
|
Hunt
Button Buck
Subsistence Hunter
Posts: 20
|
Post by Hunt on Sept 17, 2009 23:05:48 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by rossman40 on Sept 18, 2009 0:51:02 GMT -5
If you want to jump on RW's bandwagon go ahead. Anyone who has bought a extruded barreled POS (more importantly one made in the years involved in the recall) should be warned. But to put the label on the new button rifled barrels that the old extruded versions gained is stretching it. Do you compare new fords to the old pinto fire bombs? Maybe your too young to remember Ralph Nader and the corvair, is GM still putting out un-safe cars? RW was pimping Austin & Hallecks but I do not see him mentioning that A&Hs also had extruded barrels from Bergara. Myself, Bergara does have to prove themselves and I'm not doing the testing. If you have a serious case of "spanish barrel syndrome" then you better run from Traditions and even the Remington Genesis.
Being a moderator I'm going to move this to the safety issues area of the board.
|
|
|
|
Post by Al on Sept 18, 2009 3:28:13 GMT -5
for what it's worth, I've been shooting the snot out of a couple of their stainless Encore ML barrels this summer without a problem. I read all the bad on them there was to read before hand and it didn't sway me a bit, and I do trust Ed Shilens input.
I can say these barrels are very accurate with everything I've run thru them, the 45cal barrel ceases to amaze me everytime out.
|
|
|
|
Post by kevin k on Sept 18, 2009 6:21:38 GMT -5
a friend of mine just got a cva apex with a bergara barrel i tell ya what it shoots 1 to 1.5 more 1in no problem at 100 yds i am impressed with the gun it does not fell cheap at all and the barrel is alot smother then my 50 barrels after seeing and shooting it they are nice a big change from the past ones i also shot a accura same thing nice gun and shot very nice i think cva is on to something about time but for the money i still like my savage but would not worry at all about the bergara barrels kevin k
|
|
|
|
Post by rangeball on Sept 18, 2009 8:27:26 GMT -5
Al, didn't you guys test the barrel steel on those bergara's as well, and it was CF rifle hardness?
|
|
|
|
Post by bigmoose on Sept 18, 2009 9:11:53 GMT -5
needless to say safety is number one, its good for folks to bring up these issues, and we a lucky to have folks like Rossman to address these issues with facts, its a winner any way you look at it.
|
|
|
|
Post by paulslund on Sept 18, 2009 9:45:25 GMT -5
I can say these barrels are very accurate with everything I've run thru them, the 45cal barrel ceases to amaze me everytime out. Umm..I think you mean "never ceases to amaze me...". ;D |
|
|
|
Post by rangeball on Sept 18, 2009 9:56:54 GMT -5
When I asked CVA about the barrel steel used in the bergara ML barrel, they assumed I wanted to shoot smokeless and went on a multi-paragraph case against the savage, complete with pics of Toby's blow up and how they would NEVER advocate smokeless in any ML as it's just not safe  |
|
Hunt
Button Buck
Subsistence Hunter
Posts: 20
|
Post by Hunt on Sept 18, 2009 11:26:21 GMT -5
When you look at the number of blow-ups in ML you can find two Savages that failed out of 50,000 rifles and the causes are suspect. However when it comes to CVA/Bergara you can find around 200 catastrophic failures (CF) out of 80,000 rifles with over 50 serous injuries and it continues to happen. Knight had no Cf, T/C one with a side-lock, this is about the same for all makers other than CVA.
I not saying all Bergara barrels are going to CF, but over the years they have had a rate of CF way beyond what is acceptable and 50 times as many as all others companies combined.
A skunk don't get any sweeter just by the changing of its name.
|
|
|
|
Post by rangeball on Sept 18, 2009 12:09:56 GMT -5
Has bergara always made the CVA barrels? I thought in the past couple years, they were picked up as an option on their higher priced guns like the optima elite and the accura?
|
|
|
|
Post by Al on Sept 18, 2009 16:41:52 GMT -5
I can say these barrels are very accurate with everything I've run thru them, the 45cal barrel ceases to amaze me everytime out. Umm..I think you mean "never ceases to amaze me...". ;D yeah forgot the never...........first cup of coffee hadn't hit home yet. |
|
|
|
Post by Al on Sept 18, 2009 16:50:33 GMT -5
Al, didn't you guys test the barrel steel on those bergara's as well, and it was CF rifle hardness? The 4 stainless ML barrels I have, check 26-27rc, same as my stainless Kreiger and Shilen CF barrels, where as my 25yr old TC Hawkins doesn't even register on the "C" scale which leads me to believe it maybe a very low carbon steel. From what I could gather from the above links, there were some thread issues with the breech and or plug also. |
|
|
|
Post by rossman40 on Sept 18, 2009 19:23:23 GMT -5
From what I remember early (like the 80s) top line traditional (sidelock) CVAs had Douglas and I think the company was Deercreek barrels which were top line. If you get a early CVA and it is marked "Made in USA", not just an address, you have a truly fine bit of craftsmanship. I think what got them into trouble was making the product cheaper, you started seeing spanish locks and then Green Mountain barrels and later most of the gun was spanish parts. The way I understand it Bergara came up with the extrusion process for barrel making where the barrel comes out of a machine much like the old playdough toys with the barrel contour and rifling done. It cut the cost of the barrel by like 75%. Tap it for a breechplug then put some minor hardware on, finish it and your ready to go. CVA jumped on it, maybe too soon, Bergara was still playing with alloys and the process. Now Austin & Halleck also jumped in for their inline which the barreled actions were being made right down the road by another spanish firm. From what I understand A&H wanted a certain alloy and stringent proofing. They were also against any charges over 100gr for their rifle. CVA wanted cheap, to put out $100 MLs. When the CVAs started blowing up the lawsuits followed and basicly put them under (or they bailed). In steps BPI/ Dikar to buy up the brand, they also licensed the Winchester brand name (yes all those X-150s were from Dikar).
The question I have is, are there barrels on MLs still being sold with barrels made by the extruded process? Traditions (which also has the Remington Genesis made in Spain) and BPI/CVA are still selling sub $200 made in Spain rifles. It makes me wonder about barrel quality on the cheaper models.
|
|
|
|
Post by rangeball on Sept 21, 2009 9:00:01 GMT -5
I don't know about the cheaper guns, but on their website bergara has a video of their process for the higher end barrels, and they aren't extruded. So for the purposes RB is offering, and based on Al's testing, they seem to be a viable option for going smokeless.
|
|
|
|
Post by sw on Sept 21, 2009 19:16:30 GMT -5
as my 25yr old TC Hawkins doesn't even register on the "C" scale which leads me to believe it maybe a very low carbon steel. While many companies used 12L14, which worked well for BP usage(Green River, Browning Mountain Rifles, etc), TC used, to the best of my remembrance, 1137 which is a little stronger yet. These are not metals that are designed to be used with CF pressures but did very well for the intended usage. I think, but could well be wrong, that Green Mountain still uses 1137 for their MLing barrels. |
|
tslc
Forkhorn
Posts: 66
|
Post by tslc on Sept 26, 2009 22:23:54 GMT -5
Here is another link with a different view of the subject. www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=561 I have not shot the barrel yet. I am having forend problems. The bolts that came with the barrel will not work with my Boyds' 26" heavy forend with out modification. I have some TC bolts that are the right length but the wrong thread.  I think you may need a ML forend with the 45-70 Bergara barrel. I will head to the hardware store and try to find something that will work with this forend. |
|
|
|
Post by Harley on Nov 19, 2009 23:55:12 GMT -5
tslc beat me to it; Mike Bellm is sold on Bergara and I'm sold on Mike Bellm. Mike recently traveled to Norcross, GA as an invited guest of CVA to test the Apex, and came away a convert, so much so that he's neglecting his longstanding critiques of T/C. If you've got an hour or so to look through his web site, www.bellmtcs.com, it makes fascinating reading and you'll learn a few things. Harley |
|
|
|
Post by sw on Nov 20, 2009 8:29:13 GMT -5
When you look at the number of blow-ups in ML you can find two Savages that failed out of 50,000 rifles and the causes are suspect. My Savage's barrel/action failure was one of two failures that I know about. I've reported very fairly and accurately concerning my view of the cause. I didn't blame the 10-ML2 for the failure. I was shooting Ltl Gn at loads mentioned to me by a Savage higher up. Ltl Gn stopped being tested after my gun's incident. Yes, I was injured in the mis-hap. I have scars on my face and hand. I believe I was very forthright concerning this incident and very fair to Savage. For his protection, I'll not mention his name - which is familiar to a # of us. He, nor Toby, nor I knew of the potential dangers of Ltl Gn. I don't blame the company not the gun. I do wonder why you state "the causes are suspect". I have been very open. We need to be very careful with our statements. Steve White |
|
|
|
Post by mike.dawson on Nov 20, 2009 17:52:49 GMT -5
Can somebody tell me why this topic is on our Savage Board?
Mike
|
|
|
|
Post by sw on Nov 21, 2009 13:12:29 GMT -5
Apparently because someone used one of these barrels to build a smokeless MLer.
|
|
Hunt
Button Buck
Subsistence Hunter
Posts: 20
|
Post by Hunt on Dec 13, 2009 14:53:00 GMT -5
I started this thread but not here, a forum Moderator moved it here. And yes there was/is one fellow rebarreling Savages with Bergara barrels.
|
|
|
|
Post by jeremylong on Dec 15, 2009 14:06:13 GMT -5
Mike Bellm got wined and dined by the execs... so he is not an unbiased opinion. Why in the world would you want to chance your money and life with a company with their track record? Especially, when there are plenty of other options...
Just does not make sense to me, especially when you have the quality and reputation of barrel makers right here.
|
|
|
|
Post by rossman40 on Dec 15, 2009 20:35:37 GMT -5
Too many tightwads out there that would jump on a Bergara Encore barrel instead of a factory TC barrel if it meant saving $75.
What is worse they are making Savage and Remington centerfire barrels and what happens when they really start flooding the US with barrel blanks. Good ol' Larry will be pimping them under the Adams and Bennett label not to mention all those custom makers now using Douglas or E R Shaw blanks.
Again it is a wait and see. Comparing the current button rifled Bergara barrels to the extruded POS they used to put out (or still do) is a stretch.
|
|
Hunt
Button Buck
Subsistence Hunter
Posts: 20
|
Post by Hunt on Dec 25, 2009 23:58:50 GMT -5
rossman40, I with you on this.
For what it is worth I have no doubt that the Bergara barrel factory has updated their machining process and it was designed to mass produce barrels but the steel is the same, there was no update at the steel mill that supply's the steel extruded rods.
|
|
|
|
Post by swampmen on Apr 13, 2010 20:08:19 GMT -5
Guys and Gals muzzleloaders were use to hunt with in a difference season for deer mostly, We started out useing black powder then prydox then 3-7 and a hole lot more .Then 150 gr then 200 gr and then smokeless .Ned Roberts book they use smokeless to fire there flints then in the nipple area of about 5 gr .They had enlines back in the 1860s .Can we try and hunt with a muzzleloader I don't care what kind it is lets just have fun burn 110-120 gr powder and hunt . Thanks the old swampmen
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2010 16:41:36 GMT -5
Hunt, obviously you are new and pretty much have no clue what you are talking about.
Ive been shooting CVA's since i was 14 years old and now have 12 years under my belt with their rifles. Ive never once in all those years come across ANY safety issues with the barrel, frame nor triggers on these rifles.
I currently shoot 4 to 6 THOUSAND rounds out of my CVA's each year with no mishap whatsoever.
Shooting USA just had a show on a week ago about the Bergara barrel plant.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2010 16:44:33 GMT -5
tslc beat me to it; Mike Bellm is sold on Bergara and I'm sold on Mike Bellm. Mike recently traveled to Norcross, GA as an invited guest of CVA to test the Apex, and came away a convert, so much so that he's neglecting his longstanding critiques of T/C. If you've got an hour or so to look through his web site, www.bellmtcs.com, it makes fascinating reading and you'll learn a few things. Harley Not only that but hes tested the hardness of the steel and they all passed with flying colors. RW i hear,blew up a savage ML. I doubt he will admit to it though. |
|
I think you may need a ML forend with the 45-70 Bergara barrel. I will head to the hardware store and try to find something that will work with this forend.
