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Post by Buckrub on Jan 14, 2009 17:15:36 GMT -5
Makes sense.
Savage just called me back. The product person said that "yes, this ML-BP gun WILL indeed shoot smokeless powder".
So there you go.
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Post by encoreguy on Jan 14, 2009 18:06:55 GMT -5
If I get enough Cabela's points built up I may just have to buy one. Kind of excited about the 26" barrel. I wonder if the new barrel nut is easily taken off to change barrels or nearly impossible?
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Post by tar12 on Jan 14, 2009 18:22:03 GMT -5
If I get enough Cabela's points built up I may just have to buy one. Kind of excited about the 26" barrel. I wonder if the new barrel nut is easily taken off to change barrels or nearly impossible? Go ahead and order one up Kyle and let us know.... ;D
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Post by rossman40 on Jan 14, 2009 18:45:32 GMT -5
Joe Degrande told Jim over on savageshooters.com that other differences will be.
Barrel is a large shank rather than the standard shank like on the other 10ML-II models.
Action screw spacing on the BP is 4.40" to match the new centerfeed centerfires, while all other 10ML-II's still use the old staggered-feed spacing of 4.275"
If you think there was a lot of problems with the front mounting screw wait till guys start messing with the large shank actions where the front hole is almost 1/16" shallower.
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Post by getonit on Jan 14, 2009 19:00:44 GMT -5
Looks like a fourth gen. Savage- the ML1's , MLII's pre-accu flat back, MLII accu-trigger round reciever , and now this redesigned one.. It will be interesting to compare accuraccy with the 26" barrel to the 24"- the FPS increase possible could be good or bad.. Rick
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Post by encoreguy on Jan 14, 2009 23:21:12 GMT -5
If I get enough Cabela's points built up I may just have to buy one. Kind of excited about the 26" barrel. I wonder if the new barrel nut is easily taken off to change barrels or nearly impossible? Go ahead and order one up Kyle and let us know.... ;D Great let me be the guinea pig!
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Post by pointman on Jan 15, 2009 8:54:58 GMT -5
Buckrub, you make a good point. I live in the gun hating state of Illinois. Rifles are not allowed for hunting because of how far they can shoot. If someone told that powers that be Savages can shoot accurately to 350 yards, they would be illegal in a heart beat. Personally, I am just happy that Savage will be selling more of these fine muzzleloaders. Could not agree more Craigf, here in Ohio we have the same issue with "rifles shooting too far" and thus we must use shotguns and mzs. It has always concerned me that if Ohio DNR ever figured out that people shooting the Savage ML were attaining centerfire speeds, smokeless would be outlawed. For those of you who do not have the limit of shotguns or mz's for deer, this is not a big issue, for those of us who do, making a big deal about smokeless in mz's is. I love both of my MLII's and what I am able to do with them including not having to clean the he77 out of them every time I shoot and would hate to have to give them up or go to BP in them.
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Post by mike.dawson on Jan 15, 2009 9:29:11 GMT -5
Watch what you say, they may read this, I leave Tampa every fall to hunt in Huron Co for Ohio Whitetail on my brothers farm. Florida is a non smokless state and BH209 fits the bill down here for that on deer, but you can shoot hogs with the Savage smokless.
Mike
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Post by rangeball on Jan 15, 2009 10:56:30 GMT -5
Will the new breech plug fit the 10ML II so you can remove it with a standard ratchet instead of the funky bp tool? If yes will savage be selling these individually for guys that want to upgrade?
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Post by 1shot1kill on Jan 15, 2009 11:12:41 GMT -5
Will the new breech plug fit the 10ML II so you can remove it with a standard ratchet instead of the funky bp tool? If yes will savage be selling these individually for guys that want to upgrade? From what I was told by Brian Herrick, VP of Savage Arms, yes the breeck plugs are interchangeable. I should be getting some of those new breech plugs in the next couple weeks, so I will let you guys know for sure and what the specs are.
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Post by jeremylong on Jan 15, 2009 11:51:43 GMT -5
Thank goodness with the hex head breach plug. I get mad every time I look at mine. Someone needs a kick in the but for not changing it sooner. Special tools needed to maintain a gun, uhgg. Now if we could just standardize a ventliner / bushing to last 1,000 rounds Savage would have the market by the nuts.
With all of the various metal coatings I would think a little R&D money could find the answer.
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Post by youp50 on Jan 15, 2009 12:02:56 GMT -5
Seems like a nice gun case they are throwing in.
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 15, 2009 12:25:50 GMT -5
Rossman40,
Do your concerns about the ML BP, Have anything to do with its being a shooter, The stock is all new, hopefully better than the orginal camo stock. Barrel a little long for woods hunting, but thats what hacksaws are for [smile]
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 15, 2009 12:30:59 GMT -5
Does anyone know the overall lenght of the rifle?
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Post by Buckrub on Jan 15, 2009 14:58:54 GMT -5
Yes.
From Cabela's Customer Service:
Product specifications: Caliber: .50 209 shotshell primer ignition Overall length: 44 inches Barrel length: 24 inches Weight: 7 3/4 pounds Stock: Synthetic, Realtree Hardwoods® HD camo pattern with positive checkering, dual pillar bedding. Sights: Adjustable fiber optic; green rear sight fiber optic red front sight. Drilled and tapped for scope mounts. Rifling Rate of Twist: 1 in 24 Features: New AccuTriggerTM, Stainless barreled action, heavy contour, button-rifled barrel with crowned muzzle. Sling swivel studs installed. AccuTrigger is user adjustable down to 1 1/2 pound of pull weight.
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Post by rossman40 on Jan 15, 2009 15:24:50 GMT -5
My only concern with the BP is that if you bulge the barrel while using smokeless will Savage still stand behind it being that the BP is stamped "only recommended for use with black powder or an equivalent substitute". The other changes are nothing new for centerfire guys but you have to be aware of them if you start swapping parts. The large shank barrel is nothing new, the 10ML-I used the same thread and centerfires chambered for the WSM, RUM, and SAUM calibers and the Savage target actions also use it. Pacnor will have no problem threading the barrels and I think it may be a bit better as you could add a tad more meat to the chamber area. Factory barrels are stepped on the centerfires so that the barrel contour is the same as small shank barrels, Aftermarket recoil lugs are available for the large shank. The front screw for the mount will require a closer look when installing due to the receiver being a bit thinner. The action spacing is also nothing new. When Savage switched to the centerfeed magazine in 2006 on most centerfires they went to this spacing. I think the reason they did this for the BP was to use the stock from the model 10 predator hunter with the thicker recoil pad. This could cause a problem with aftermarket stocks as not all aftermarket stock makers have geared up to this new spacing. Besides I was always taught longer is better although 1/8" isn't going to make a big difference (Savage's target rifles in the past was built on the 112 action [112BT]) The breech plug is just an update as is the ramrod thimble. I just hope the new thimble will be attached with two screws instead of just one. Barrel length is confusing, centerfires are measured from the muzzle to the breech end (sometimes from the muzzle to the cartridge base). The 10ML-II is speced at 24" but usable barrel is only 22" and then you have your powder charge on top of that. TB once told us here that Savage did make a 10ML for testing that had a 26" barrel (maybe Bill could verify). And with the "book" smokeless powders there was not a substantial enough gain to warrant the change to a longer barrel (supposedly the rifle is now owned by a Savage employee). Now for guys using slower then book powders or BP subs longer is better. How many of the changes on the BP that get moved over to the 10ML-II in the future may be the question.
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 15, 2009 16:04:44 GMT -5
Rossman,
Thanks for the info.
Good Luck,
Marty
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esmd
8 Pointer
Bill Drain
Posts: 109
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Post by esmd on Jan 16, 2009 0:22:28 GMT -5
From Mr. Furious over on the Savage Shooter's board:
"Ok, here's the scoop on the 10ML-BP differences, straight from the mouth of Joe DeGrande.
1. Ramrod thimble is shaped differently and is a little longer in length 2. Breech plug now has a hex nut on the back rather than the 4-slots for the old removal tool. 3. 2" longer barrel 4. Barrel is a large shank rather than the standard shank like on the other 10ML-II models. 5. Action screw spacing on the BP is 4.40" to match the new centerfeed centerfires, while all other 10ML-II's still use the old staggered-feed spacing of 4.275" 6. These are only recommended for use with black powder or an equivalent substitute. NO SMOKELESS!
All other 10ML-II's will still come with the old style breech plug and ramrod until their current supply runs out. Whether or not they will change the screw spacing and barrel shank diameter on these like they have the BP is still unknown."
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Post by savagebrother on Jan 16, 2009 13:15:12 GMT -5
pointman, i wouldnt be to concerned-they know how fast we are going, they really dont care about speed of the bullet as much as speed of the shooter shooting multiple shots-you know slinging lead at a running deer. to put things in to perspective, a white muzzloader .50 cal. shooting 600 grain lead bullet at 1400 fps is very deadly at well over 1000 yards. so using lighter faster bullets is actually safer if your talking distance and chance hits on people. sb p.s. hearing scuttlebutt that they are thinking about centerfire rifles for the southeast part of the state because of the rising deer herd population. just preliminary though.
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Post by missedagain on Jan 16, 2009 17:32:40 GMT -5
I think it's great that Savage can sell it's muzleloader that is head and shoulders above the compitition through Cabelas.(Sorry 'bout the comparision but my scalp gets dry this time of year and their are still a few hairs left) It's great that there will be more Savage ML shooters. (..and I'm glad that Savage didn't cheap out and lower their standards, even tho they could have when they agreed to sell the ML-10 as a BP onlymodel) I'm dissapointed that Cabelas chose to state that BP and BP substututes are the ONLY safe and suitable propelents in ANY muzzleloader. I'm living in Tompkins county of NY and it has been shotgun and muzzeloading for as long as I've been hunting. This will never change.( but that will be due to politics and not the safety record). I was corncerened that hunting oponents would pick up on shotgun sabots extended range and take measures to have them banned. They never did. There was no proof that the longer range CF rifles allowed in the Catskilles and Adarondaks where causing more accidents. IMO-It's unlikely that Savage muzzeloaders will be singled out for scrutiny. Jeff
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Post by DBinNY on Jan 16, 2009 20:26:02 GMT -5
I think (and hope) that missedagain is right. Our portion of NY has long been shotgun/muzzleloader/handgun country and I actually feel like I have an advantage over the "less informed" crowd that doesn't shoot a Savage. In the past few years NY has allowed the use of CF rifles in some of the more sparsely populated counties of the southern tier which were formerly SG/MUZZ/HG only. There have been no incidents in any of these new rifle counties to suggest that the use of rifles is more dangerous and there is also research that suggests that SGs are actually more dangerous than CF rifles. Be that as it may, I don't anticipate that the the more densely populated counties are going to allow CFs any time soon.
As for Cabelas and Savage teaming up to sell a gun that is smokeless capable and denying it, I'm just not going to get my shorts in a knot over that. As long as those of us who know better have the option of shooting smokeless out of our guns I'm happy.
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bwana
Button Buck
Posts: 1
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Post by bwana on Jan 16, 2009 22:18:28 GMT -5
As most of you know,Cabela's now has a store in Winnipeg Manitoba Canada.They sell the 10MLII here as did SIR,the buisness that they bought out. Now,I'm no International Law Expert but I found it strange that Cabela's would sell the 10MLII in Canada but not in the USA. Why Cabela's is doing the BP warning is strange but time will tell.
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