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Post by Richard on Aug 5, 2009 16:41:10 GMT -5
Well, I finally got a chance to experience the "LEAD SLED!". A few weeks ago I took a flyer when crossing a 28" fence in my yard. To break the fall, I extended my right arm and tore or strained something as a sharp pain was felt . It may be slightly improving but last weeks session with 2900 fps loads did seem to agitate it some . So this week, I asked our friend Bill if he would bring his lead sled DFT for me to play with. I have to say, I was pleasantly surprised. I put my 16 lb. leather shot bag on it and the shooting results were not too bad. What bothered me though, was the "wobbly" rear adjustable leg. I have since taken it home and rectified the situation for me and Bill (he says I can use it as long as I need). Also this week, Bill brought his second Pact Chronograph and we placed it right behind mine. So, velocities could be "double checked!" NEAT! velocities were within 10 fps or so. Due to the bright sun, some shots did not read, but by and large the results were very good. Today I only shot two different charges........both duplexes. The first one I used to shoot the First five targets; five shots each. My plan was to try the load with different 200 grain bullets both saboted and sabotless. This is a load I modified from last week looking to lower the 2900 fps to around 2800 fps........and it worked. It averaged right around 2780 for some 15 shots. The load is: 13/54----N-110/N-130 (last week it was 15/55) Target #1 was looking really good until the fifth shot Target #2 with the same bullet was OK but not outstanding ;D Target #3 really wanted to shoot except for the first shot Target #4 was sabotless........Note how the velocity dropped by 100 fps? (same charge) Target #5 I used the 200 gr. Ranier copper plated bullet. Looks just like a 200 gr XTP and note how the velocity dropped a full 200 fps? This bullet loaded exactly the other saboted bullets....same type of seating pressure. Can not figure why the velocity should drop? Any clues??? It did group surprisingly well though. Target #6 was the only other duplex and it was a new one for me and I used the 250 FTX with a .060 veggie wad. The velocity is kind of "ho-hum!" and extreme spread not too good This one will take some "tweaking" and it was shot at 200 yards. I am starting to get to the point where keeping at least (3) in a row under 3" at 300 yards is getting more common. I wish I could explain shot #1 on target 3. All shots were solid no flinch/pull/call mistakes. At least that I was aware of. Richard The picture of the bullets are my modified XTP on the left and the Renier on the right.
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Post by jhm on Aug 5, 2009 19:06:44 GMT -5
Interesting report as usual Richard. I may try your 13/54 duplex. It sure helps us guys who put long hours at work in to review your post. The learning curve is a lot shorter.
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Post by chuck41 on Aug 5, 2009 23:11:37 GMT -5
I too tried the HP Raniers in my 50 and found their accuracy to be quite comparable to the very similar XTPs with the same loads. Unfortunately I did not have a chrony at the time.
These are less expensive copper plated bullets and a couple years ago I actually found them about 30% less in price than XTPs. I found Ranier HPs to be just as accurate as the similar XTP model in my 50 cal. Other than price I found no advantage to the Ranier HPs over the XTPs than I could see. I would highly recommend them for punching holes in paper. Not so sure I would say the same for punching holes in deer, but they should be great for 'yotes or g'hogs.
A couple years ago they were substantially cheaper than similar XTPs, but now seem to be almost the same price if you can find them at all. Unless you could find them at a better value than I have recently seen of only 5% less than XTPs I wouldn't recommend them. The Ranier round nose and round nose flat point bullets look nice, but I haven't tried them yet. Might be really great for shooting targets with likely a bit better BC than the HP versions.
I have not tried Ranier's sabotless in my 40 yet but I have a box of the 40cal 200gr RNFP and am anxious to try them. Not sure I would feel comfortable boosting them to the same velocity as the thicker jacketed XTPs in a sabotless mode though. Unfortunately that will likely not come about until sometime next month. Wife is hauling me away to go to the beach for about three weeks. It's tough being retired but somebody's gotta do it.
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tick
Forkhorn
Posts: 61
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Post by tick on Aug 5, 2009 23:41:38 GMT -5
Great report as usual Richard. May I ask how you took the wobble out of the rear adjustment leg on the DFT. Nitro and myself are both having the same issues with ours.
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Post by boarhog on Aug 6, 2009 2:17:05 GMT -5
Richard, fab reporting as usual. I wonder if the Raniers are too soft? Seems like I've read that they are only rated up to 1800 fps? Maybe it was 1500 fps? Can't remember now. The cast lead bullets I've tried so far did not show much accuracy.
I still haven't had a chance to try my Lead Sled DFT, but I am also interested in how you solved the rear foot wobble problem?
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Post by kevin k on Aug 6, 2009 7:33:09 GMT -5
RICHARD keep up the reports nice shooting looks like a good 3 shot group load. lol i know you like 5 shot groups keep up the good work. i mean good fun thanks. kevin k
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Post by Richard on Aug 6, 2009 11:02:50 GMT -5
OK, on the Reniers...........I could really see accuracy not being good due to softness of the lead??? But not the velocity??? I mean, it weights the same, mic's the same and loads the same. The Chronograph is only ten or so feet from the muzzle, so why should the velocity be different? And, with TWO chronographs verifying the results? I can understand the 200 gr. FTX sabotless being lower velocity since they do not seat with as much pressure. (I could see upping the starter charge to compensate) I know we have many good thinker's on this board.......How about it? Next.......The "WOBBLY REAR LEG" on the DFT??? Got it fixed already What I had intended to do was drill out the hole (its a solid steel insert welded into the tubular frame) larger. Machine an insert with the hole only a few thousands larger than the machine screw on the leg. The only problem here (and not insurmountable, but a lot more work) is this: located inside is a small "tit" which guides on the channel machined into the screws leg. The reason for the channel and tit is so the leg does not spin around when you turn the big adjusting "nut" ! If you open the hole, you loose the tit? You could make your insert and and then add a small set screw from the side before you epoxy the sleeve in place........but again, considerably more work. So, here is the EASY fix. Get two flat washers that have a hole just slightly smaller than the threaded leg (or make your own washer from flat stock) I put the washer in my vise, and using a "rattail" file, I filed and fit the leg to jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjust go thru. Do this on two washers. Rough up the surface on one side of both washers. Now rough up the surface on the top and bottom of the existing piece on the DFT and epoxy them in place. You might want to insert the leg so they are properly lined up. Let set up and you are in business. Very solid. I would say I increased the stability of that leg by 95%. You could also solder, tack weld or braze the washers in place, but I don't think it is necessary. There is alot of holding surface on the washer and not much stress from the leg. If this was MY Lead Sled, I would probably also do the same thing with the front pedestal rest. I hate the way it rattles around when you move it. It is definitely not like quality benchrest type equipment. The only saving grace is that it can be locked tight. I just like stuff to fit right! For the price? Its pretty good! Richard
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Post by Dave W on Aug 6, 2009 17:58:54 GMT -5
This is no where as extreme as what you witnessed but, the 250 BSW shoots to slower velocities than the 250 SST with the same loads in my gun. Probably at least 50fps differential.
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Post by Richard on Aug 6, 2009 21:13:52 GMT -5
I am sure this should go on the equipment section but since the question was asked on the rear leg, I am going to throw this tid-bit in. Moderators, feel free to move it............. I also found the lead sled moving rearward about 3/4" each shot, even with 16 lbs of lead on board. I could add more, but came up with the following idea. I may even modify it some more. See what you think. Now mind you, I have not actually tried shooting with it. I was just mocking it up on my basement bench. I got a feeling it will work! Maybe even without a lead bag? Check it out! I could use two springs.......One on each side. Richard
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tick
Forkhorn
Posts: 61
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Post by tick on Aug 7, 2009 0:00:47 GMT -5
Richard good idea on improving the DFT. I have my washers sized and will attach them tomorrow. That's a great thing about this board. Sharing ideas that work! Thanks.
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Post by jims on Aug 7, 2009 10:43:12 GMT -5
Richard, I have 50 pounds of lead on my DFT and it still moves rearward about that far on every shot. I noticed it when it was about ready to fall off the bench.
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Post by Richard on Aug 7, 2009 14:59:01 GMT -5
My thought is this: If I can adjust the tension just right, it should recoil and "return to battery" ;D Richard
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Post by minst7877 on Aug 7, 2009 15:18:36 GMT -5
My thought is this: If I can adjust the tension just right, it should recoil and "return to battery" ;D Richard Can you clamp a stop on the table in front of the sled and let the spring pull it back to it each time? DC
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Post by Richard on Aug 7, 2009 19:05:09 GMT -5
Actually I had envisioned that, but the way our concrete benches are set up at the club, I have no where to attach a stop. That wooden bench is in my basement. I don't even know how this will work out. Its simple and did not take much time to put together. If my shoulder improves, I might just give Bill back his Lead Sled ;D Richard
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Post by boarhog on Aug 7, 2009 19:17:34 GMT -5
Richard, I was just re-reading some of this thread when I thought about a possible cause for the Raniers being slower. If you were shooting SST or XTP type bullets, their jacket is a gilding metal while the Raniers jacket is plated copper. I have had some experience with some more pure alloys of copper being worse to gall on instrument valves because they have an increased friction coefficiant than brass alloy. I have no idea if this theory hold water. I know that copper is softer than gilding metal but it may have more drag, especially at the speed you are shooting. Just a thought. boarhog
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Post by Richard on Aug 8, 2009 20:16:35 GMT -5
Boarhog........These were encapsulated in Harvester Blue sabots. Not sabotless. I would think that obturation of a lead plated bullet would be greater than a copper jacketed bullet and as such, cause an even tighter fit? Richard
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Post by Dave W on Aug 8, 2009 23:34:05 GMT -5
DUH on my part, I was thinking sabotless also. Maybe excessive obduration? The all coppers shoot faster than the SST with the same loads in my .50 and .45 probably due to a lack of or lesser obduration. Maybe the Rainier is putting more force on the sidewalls and slowing the load down. You would think the better seal would increase pressure though like you said.
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Post by boarhog on Aug 9, 2009 0:44:30 GMT -5
Duh 2! I was also thinking sabotless. Teach me to read a tad more carefully.
That said, it looks like we have the same theory that increased friction/drag is slowing the projectile, but I was way off base about how it happened!
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Post by Richard on Aug 9, 2009 14:55:56 GMT -5
I may re shoot them again on Tuesday and see if my results are corroborated. Richard
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Post by Chris Champion on Aug 9, 2009 17:20:14 GMT -5
DUH on my part, I was thinking sabotless also. Maybe excessive obduration? The all coppers shoot faster than the SST with the same loads in my .50 and .45 probably due to a lack of or lesser obduration. Maybe the Rainier is putting more force on the sidewalls and slowing the load down. You would think the better seal would increase pressure though like you said. That's just the opposite of what I've seen so far in my 45. For example, 58g H4198 will shoot a 200g XTP about 2620 fps and a 195 BX at about 2570. It seems like the 200 XTP and the 200 SST load a little tighter than the Barnes so I assume the increase in speed is due to slightly higher pressure.
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Post by Dave W on Aug 9, 2009 20:19:27 GMT -5
Chris, I caught that in the other thread. I do knurl the 195 BX so maybe that is why. As a side note, the duplex you shot the TEZ with is similar to what I use with the 250 SST. You are a good bit faster with that load.
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Post by jims on Aug 10, 2009 16:20:06 GMT -5
Richard: I did not notice much "slop" in the Sled but there was no harm in adding the washers so I did. I am interested if you find a spring type/weight to keep the Sled in place.
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Post by Richard on Aug 10, 2009 18:56:08 GMT -5
If the weather holds tomorrow, I will be able to give you an answer in the evening. Richard
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