Men's Arrogance

[ET]

When I read this I felt anger at the audacity that anyone would try to change God's Word.

Pope Francis Suggests Changing The Words To The 'Lord's Prayer' : The Two-Way The phrase "lead us not into temptation" isn't right, the pontiff says, because "a father does not do this.". France's Catholic Church has changed the phrase in its version of the Lord's Prayer.

We read that Christ (Gods Son) was lead into the dessert to face temptation from Satan. I believe we too are exposed to strong temptations in an area where God might lead us. Not just to test us but reveal a weakness in our lives. Yes we often fail our first round of exposure to certain temptation but God is ready to forgive us if we confess our failure and repent. I will never accept changes to God's word and teachings. Any denomination that adopts this I feel is not the true body of Christ.

Ed

[dannoboone]

The Lord's Prayer came straight from the mouth of Jesus after the
apostles asked Him how to pray. Some meanings can be lost when
translating from Greek to English, but I do not see this being
one of them.

Francis has done and said some pretty strange things which should
cause people to wonder, yet he is not alone. There are preachers
of many faiths who are leading their flocks astray. Some have
even morphed into evil cults. One's only defense is to read the
Holy Bible and then to know that such is happening.

Or as David Jeremiah once said, people believe that churches are
off limits to the devil. This is where the devil attempts to
cause harm more than many other places. He has probably sat
right next to me!

[ET]

Dannoboone

You are absolutely right, one has to read the Holy Bible for the truth and the truth will set you free. Christ even warned that many will come in His Name but be not deceived. The Bible can unmask any deceptions but only if you read and learn what God's Word provides that is truth.

Ed

[sw]

James 1:13,14

13Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.

[sw]

The KJV had few translating crosschecks due to the urgency of the translation being completed. One serious error was the translation in Gen 22:1 where the Hebrew word for “test” was mis-translated “tempt” which led to the doctrinal error that God can tempt people to sin.

KJV Gen 22:1And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

NASB Gen 22:1 Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am."

The NIV, ESV, Holman and virtually every version has “tested” . The Hebrew word being translated here is clearly “tested”.

If a person insists that the KJV is correct and that all other versions are wrong, including the Septuagint and Jewish Tora , then there still is the problem with what James said which conflicts with the KJV translation in Gen 22:1. As with Job, God may allow Satan to temp a person up to a point. I don’t know if God still functions this way or not.

[ET]

Hi SW

I totally agree God does not tempt us but allows Satan to tempt us but not more than we can endure.
As to your last sentence, "I don’t know if God still functions this way or not". The Bible teaches God never changes, that includes His actions from the
past to the present. One aspect I enjoy knowing is Satan tries to discredit God but God can turn that discredit around to Glorify His Name.

Ed

[sw]

ET, I agree. And God trumps Satan’s efforts. That is when it involves those who have accepted the gift of salvation.

Additionally, to my understanding, to Roman Catholics, the Bible is like our US constitution in that it can be amended by Popal Edicts. Martin Luther’s movement gave us the view of Biblical inerrancy AND Biblical completion.

Ed, if 1 John 1:9 were not considered, do you find anywhere that continued pleas for forgiveness are needed to get sins forgiven after our sins are removed
at the point of salvation? Personally, I believed that Paul actually taught a gospel of Grace verses the kingdom gospel that the original apostles taught the Jews which included remaining under law. Paul’s gospel, 1 Cor 15:1-4 seems quite different that Peter’s , Acts 2:38, and similar 22:16, Galatians Ch2 and Acts 15 are examples of the differences.

Why exclude 1 John 1:9? Because, I believe it’s taken totally out of context. John was dealing with the Gnostics in Ephesus who denied that God could have ever been in flesh. They said they had NO sin and that Jesus could have been diety and flesh in the same body. So, John is refuting that Jesus wasn’t God and that they had no sin. Look at the verses around 1:9 (make a God a liar, etc).

I apologize, ask for help to not sin like that again, etc during prayer but do not ask for what I feel/ believe that I have already, the forgiveness of all my sins.

How are we as Christians, in God’s sight ? Like Jesus.

1 John 4:17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.

Just some of my strange thoughts, but ones that I feel are Biblically correct.😊

[ET]

SW

In response to your post,

1 John 1:9 were not considered, do you find anywhere that continued pleas for forgiveness are needed to get sins forgiven after our sins are removed
at the point of salvation?
My belief here is that after the point of Salvation (accepting Christ) we still continue to sin and still need to ask to receive forgiveness. This is an ongoing process (dependence on God) through our physical life on earth. We will not be perfect or sin free until we appear before God in our new bodies. The Lord's prayer includes asking for continued forgiveness.
Lets include 1John 1:8 "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us".

How are we as Christians, in God’s sight ? Like Jesus.
Jesus was perfect but we are not. We have a need for forgiveness and guidance that only God can provide while we remain in our physical form.

I will never voluntarily bow to any man or angel, only to God for only He is worthy. I only see the Pope as a man with human frailties like any Preacher or Pastor
and nowhere do I read they have the authority to change Gods Word.
Now I have a question that involves Revelation 22:18-19 about the warning of changing "the words of the prophecy of this book". Does this only apply to the book of Revelation or includes the whole Bible as it is full of prophecy?

[sw]

Ed,
Hopefully we can converse by phone.

I agree that we continue to sin, but I believe that ALL my sins were forgiven at the point of salvation: past, present and future. So, if my future sins were forgiven, praying for what I already have would seem to be like praying for something I’ve already received. If Jesus’ gift of (spiritual) righteousness, forgiveness of my sins AND His righteousness so that my sin barrier with God is removed so we can have relationship, if every sin I commit, whether actual act or something I should have done, has to be removed to “get back into relationship with God”, it’d be a non-stop, in our, in out , in out type of relationship and now it’s time for lunch. Are we even that way with our loved ones? Would we have still been saved before that sin was forgiven? If we only committed 14 sins that day, likely mostly things we should have done but didn’t, were we saved/lost, saved/lost, saved/lost, 14 times? Can you be saved with “unforgiving” sins?

Jesus lived and died “under the Law”. We don’t !! The Sermon on the Mount (Marr 5-7) was delivered before the cross. Jesus prayed for the Kingdom on Earth to come - His rein on Earth , IOWs that the nation of Israel to accept Him as their Messiah, He showed them their weakness in being able to truly follow the Law by His “forgive our sins as we forgive the sins of others” - conservative Jewish thought being that unforgiveness was at the root of murder (the actual Hebrew word used in the 10 commandments was murder, not the mistranslation “kill”), etc. This was a pre-cross, pre-gospel of Grace (Paul) prayer. Is Matt 6:14,15 still in effect during this dispensation of the Gospel of Grace? 14For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. If so, only those who have truly forgiven all others of all things are saved. Though this should be our goal and hopefully actually comes to pass, is our salvation dependent on this?

As radical as the following seems, and it was for me, the 4 “Gospels were recording what Jesus said and did “under the Law - fulfilling the Law”, Peter and the apostles lived and died still following the Law trying to accept that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah so that He would come back and rule and rein - they taught “The Kingdom Gospel, and Paul received the mystery of the ages thru the resurrected Christ - the Gospel of Grace for the Gentiles and to the Jew. When Matt-Rev is all made into one “gospel” it becomes contradictory and unreconcilable. Classic example: is baptism necessary for salvation? Acts 2:38, 22:16 verses 1 Cor 15:1-4, Acts 16:30-34, others.

Revelation - about the tribulation, 1000 year rein, Jews on Earth, Kingdom Gospel back in play, etc. I used to not think so. Now, I do. Paul’s Gospel of Grace and Peter’s Gospel of the Kingdom don’t mix. Over in 2 Peter 3:15- , Peter stayed that he didn’t understand a lot of what Paul said but “listen to him”. Paul wrote 2/3 of the NT. Interesting that he did. His writings , HS inspired, have to do with the un-prophesied Church age. This is the age after the Jews never accepted their Messiah.

1 John Ch1 directly addresses the Gnostics who said they had no sin period! We have acknowledged that we do have sin. Even though I still unfortunately sin, I believe that those sins have already been forgiven. I thank Jesus for that payment and God for receiving it. I don’t lightly disregard my sin.

We’ll talk if you want.

[ET]

SW

You are welcome to believe what you choose.
At the point of Salvation my name was written in the Lambs Book of Life and my PAST SINS were forgiven. I now have a relationship with God as I've been given the Holy Spirit to reside in me. He is the Helper that Christ promised.
But there is no mention of automatic encompassing forgiveness of sin from the point after Salvation.
To me that would be like saying OOPS and motor on. Now having a direct relationship with God I can come before Him asking for forgiveness of my sins that I have further committed and repent. He has promised that I will receive forgiveness as His child when I confess my sins and restore me. This is a continuous relationship not an in and out type. Because we have future sinned does not mean we have lost our Salvation as God knows we are a sinful people but until we ask for forgiveness our relationship with God suffers. God distances Himself from sin but when we are forgiven (cleansed) from asking we continue with God in a closer relationship.

I do not see it any other way or read it any different in the Bible.

Ed

[sw]

Ed,
And I find no reference to “only to the point of salvation”. However, I don’t think God cares whether you ask forgiveness or if I apologize and express repentance for my sins.
I sent you a pm as I don’t see a public debate of doctrine as a good thing to do on such a forum, or likely anywhere. I do feel that the common interpretation of 1 John Ch 1 does not take in the historical setting in which it was written. Please check the pm.
God bless,
Steve

[ET]

Jul 13, 2019 9:07:33 GMT -5 sw said:

Ed,
And I find no reference to “only to the point of salvation”. However, I don’t think God cares whether you ask forgiveness or if I apologize and express repentance for my sins.
I sent you a pm as I don’t see a public debate of doctrine as a good thing to do on such a forum, or likely anywhere. I do feel that the common interpretation of 1 John Ch 1 does not take in the historical setting in which it was written. Please check the pm.
God bless,
Steve

I'm in agreement of putting this discussion to rest for now. We will each serve God as we feel we are compelled to do. My path has been chosen and I will not stray.

God Bless

Ed

[dougedwards]

It seems that the question is if God does actually and intentionally tempt a child of God? I think that maybe He does but not to find out how we may respond. Similarly, I don't think that God tempted Abraham to see how he would respond. We are tempted to discover how WE might respond to temptation (lest any man should boast). The prayer that Jesus taught His disciples to pray was asking the Father for protection.

"Lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil."

Who wants to be tempted? Not many of us I would suspect. It is reasonable to pray for the deliverance from the evil one. But if God chooses to expose us to temptations it is for a good purpose because we know that "all things work together for good for those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose."

Doug

[dougedwards]

I would like to add one more thing after reading the entirety of the above posts.

If all that Jesus did was die as a substitute for restitution from our sins, we would all be in trouble. That would mean that those who put their trust in Jesus would simply be at square one and expected to live a sinless life for the rest of this lifetime.

No, Jesus imputed His righteousness to all who would put their trust in Him. He took our sinfulness and we took His righteousness. Sure, we are not pure in heart even after accepting Christ but it was God's plan that we would be called "the righteousness of God" because of what Jesus did. Jesus lived a totally faithful life as opposed to the first Adam who brought sin and destruction into the world. Because of Adam we all have inherited death and corruption of the heart.  But through faith in Christ (the second Adam) we inherit righteousness and eternal life.

'For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.'



 Doug

[sw]

Well stated Doug!

[mimath314]

Amen

[ET]

Doug

I’m having some difficulty understanding what you are conveying here. I just don’t see it the way this is stated.

“If all that Jesus did was die as a substitute for restitution from our sins, we would all be in trouble. That would mean that those who put their trust in Jesus would simply be at square one and expected to live a sinless life for the rest of this lifetime.”

Jesus came into this world to die for our sins and for His children who accept Christ to have a direct relationship with God. This was revealed when the veils around the Ark in the temple were torn open at the time of Christs death. While alive Jesus taught us many things God expects from His children and their behavior. But he also stated we would never be sinless.
Now our past sins were forgiven when we accepted Christ and ask for forgiveness of them. But what about the sins we commit after the point of accepting Christ. In the Lord’s Prayer there is a line that say’s “Forgive us of our trespasses”. What constitutes trespassing’s against God? That can only be sin and we are essentially asking God to forgive us of sins we have further committed. Our cleansing is a continuous process and the strength of our relationship with God is depended on this cleansing.
Also, by asking continued forgiveness we also admit our dependency and need of God in our lives to deal with future sins.
But none of this is possible without Christ first dying for our sins and being resurrected from death.

The original point to this thread was the objection of altering God’s Word, especially the Lord’s Prayer.
There we ask not to be “led into temptation”. God led Christ into the dessert to face Satan’s temptation.
None of us would like to be led into temptation that Christ had to endure.

Ed

[mimath314]

He AROSE. That is Christ and Christianity. Sure there was a sacrifice but without the resurrection of Jesus where he is now at the right hand of the Father making intercession for all of those who believe, then it would be on us to live 100% obedient to His word.

[dougedwards]

Nov 17, 2019 14:00:42 GMT -5 ET said:

Doug

I’m having some difficulty understanding what you are conveying here. I just don’t see it the way this is stated.

“If all that Jesus did was die as a substitute for restitution from our sins, we would all be in trouble. That would mean that those who put their trust in Jesus would simply be at square one and expected to live a sinless life for the rest of this lifetime.”

Jesus came into this world to die for our sins and for His children who accept Christ to have a direct relationship with God. This was revealed when the veils around the Ark in the temple were torn open at the time of Christs death. While alive Jesus taught us many things God expects from His children and their behavior. But he also stated we would never be sinless.
Now our past sins were forgiven when we accepted Christ and ask for forgiveness of them. But what about the sins we commit after the point of accepting Christ. In the Lord’s Prayer there is a line that say’s “Forgive us of our trespasses”. What constitutes trespassing’s against God? That can only be sin and we are essentially asking God to forgive us of sins we have further committed. Our cleansing is a continuous process and the strength of our relationship with God is depended on this cleansing.
Also, by asking continued forgiveness we also admit our dependency and need of God in our lives to deal with future sins.
But none of this is possible without Christ first dying for our sins and being resurrected from death.

The original point to this thread was the objection of altering God’s Word, especially the Lord’s Prayer.
There we ask not to be “led into temptation”. God led Christ into the dessert to face Satan’s temptation.
None of us would like to be led into temptation that Christ had to endure.

Ed

Ed.....Instead of getting stuck in the weeds, let us look at the big picture first. All men are related to Adam who received a curse as did all of God's creation. Therefore, all men have inherited the consequences of this curse and became slaves to their own sin. There has been no man, no not one, who has chosen to live a sinless life. I can only hope that you are with me so far because if you are not the rest will make no sense.

1 Peter tells us that God pre-ordained Christ as the lamb of God even before the foundation of the earth was set and even the angels looked in to see how God's plan would work itself out. That is a very interesting and revealing point that tells us that God puts great value on His relationship with us because it was while we were in this state of rebellion that God sent His Son to take on the flesh. But...... we often tend to overlook something and that is that Jesus had to live a sinless life before He would qualify to take our sins upon Him. We tend to think of sin as a violation of something and that is true....it is. But the VERY FIRST commandment tells us to love God with all of our heart and soul and strength.....and do it ALL the time! To violate this commandment suggest more than a willful act to rebel.....it suggest a radically corrupt condition of the heart.

When Christ died with our sins we were not only freed from the penalty of sin but something else happened also for those who would put their trust in Him. Christ also imputed His righteousness to us. That means that the Father would see us as He sees His Son. And that also means that we have access to the Father through His Son. This is a hard concept for us because in almost everything in life we reap what we sow. But in this case, we reap what Jesus has sown.

Back to your original question about the Lord's prayer. In the sense that nothing within the universe (and anywhere else) can happen outside of the ordinance of God, we can easily be lead into temptation void of His protection. When we fail to maintain a loving relationship with Christ and turn a cold ear to the Holy Spirit we put ourselves in a precarious position. There are many biblical examples of this. Sometimes God wakes us up through the exposure to worldly temptations. The indulgence into pornography comes to mind. Jesus told His disciples to pray NOT to be exposed to such temptation BUT to be delivered from all evil. Such a prayer puts us back into an intimate and special relationship with the Father because the Father hears our plea to draw closer to Him. This prayer confirms to us that we need Him for every breath we take.

Yes, we still commit sins even though we have dedicated our lives to Christ but in a certain sense, this commitment is a process as described in the entire book of Romans but particularly in Romans 8:29. AND this imputation of righteousness from Christ to us doesn't eradicate our need to come to Him on our knees to confess our sins and ask for help. While we are there before the throne we may also ask that we not be led into temptation and ask for protection from the evil one. It's not that complicated really, once you understand that Christ came not only to save you from the consequences of sins that were committed before accepting Him as Lord and Savior....but also He came to engage you into a process whereby you are being conformed into His likeness and sometimes that means a painful straining out of the old stuff. In short, God would not lead us into temptation but we are able to take God's grace for granted and forfeit His protection as we are being conformed into the likeness of the Son. It is through this straining out of impurity that we find success in the process of sanctification.

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Romans 8:29-30


Doug

[ET]

Doug

Now that you've more clearly expanded what you were conveying I understand.

Ed

[sw]

Jesus lived and died under The Law. Col 2:14 states that He nailed the Law to the Cross. Col 2:13 tells us that the Law condemned us. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus was showing how much His fellow Jews were falling short. Forgiveness was a particular problem in Jewish culture as it is with any legalistic group of people. It’s hard to be more legalistic than the Jews of Jesus’ time. Under law, forgiveness was necessary to Get forgiveness. Under the Gospel of Grace, as revealed to Paul and taught by Paul, we’ve been given Righteousness, His righteousness, a gift, can’t be earned by us, too good to be true but it is. It’s an unmerited gift.
Back to forgiveness, it’s not supposed to be as the brother of the wonderful young man who was killed in his apartment by the off duty police woman where he said, “I have to forgive her so I can be forgiven” which is still having a mindset of being under law as Jesus was referencing in Matt 6 and explaining in vs13,14. Under the gospel of grace that Paul taught, we forgive because we have been forgiven. Which is on the higher plain, doing something to get something or doing something because it’s our nature? It’s our response to having been forgiven. IOWs, a response to who we are.
Verses to consider: Romans 5:8-11, 2 Cor 5:18-21, Rom 4:18-21, Rom 8:3, Gal 2:21, Col 2:13,14.

The Lord’s Prayer was a pre-cross prayer. Jesus was telling the disciples to pray that the Jews would accept Him as the Messiah - “Thy Kingdom come “where” Thy will be done on Earth, as it is in Heaven” this is the Millennial reign . This isn’t a prayer for today. Our forgiveness being based on our forgiveness of others is a works(Law) based salvation. At the time, the Jews believed their salvation was based on living up to the law.

I hope this makes some sense.

[dougedwards]

Nov 18, 2019 23:15:54 GMT -5 sw said:

Jesus lived and died under The Law. Col 2:14 states that He nailed the Law to the Cross. Col 2:13 tells us that the Law condemned us. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus was showing how much His fellow Jews were falling short. Forgiveness was a particular problem in Jewish culture as it is with any legalistic group of people. It’s hard to be more legalistic than the Jews of Jesus’ time. Under law, forgiveness was necessary to Get forgiveness. Under the Gospel of Grace, as revealed to Paul and taught by Paul, we’ve been given Righteousness, His righteousness, a gift, can’t be earned by us, too good to be true but it is. It’s an unmerited gift.
Back to forgiveness, it’s not supposed to be as the brother of the wonderful young man who was killed in his apartment by the off duty police woman where he said, “I have to forgive her so I can be forgiven” which is still having a mindset of being under law as Jesus was referencing in Matt 6 and explaining in vs13,14. Under the gospel of grace that Paul taught, we forgive because we have been forgiven. Which is on the higher plain, doing something to get something or doing something because it’s our nature? It’s our response to having been forgiven. IOWs, a response to who we are.
Verses to consider: Romans 5:8-11, 2 Cor 5:18-21, Rom 4:18-21, Rom 8:3, Gal 2:21, Col 2:13,14.

The Lord’s Prayer was a pre-cross prayer. Jesus was telling the disciples to pray that the Jews would accept Him as the Messiah - “Thy Kingdom come “where” Thy will be done on Earth, as it is in Heaven” this is the Millennial reign . This isn’t a prayer for today. Our forgiveness being based on our forgiveness of others is a works(Law) based salvation. At the time, the Jews believed their salvation was based on living up to the law.

I hope this makes some sense.

It’s difficult for me to fathom that Christ would teach His disciples to do something that would cease to be necessary in a year or so. Or that repentance becomes unnecessary by the act of the cross. One thing should be for certain however; the born again Christian is not under Law. But what does this mean?

Jesus instructs us to be holy as the Father in heaven is holy (Matt 5:48). Peter reiterates after the act of the cross had been completed (1 Peter 1:16). In that sense we are under a much higher standard than any law could express in words. The 8th chapter of Romans makes it clear that we have been given the power to overcome through the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Because of this Spirit that resides within us we are considered to be the children of God even though our bodies will still die because of sinfulness. Read that carefully.

“And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.” Romans 8: 10-11

I see nothing within the New Testament that would make sincere repentance an unnecessary element within the process of sanctification. What it IS NOT is a never ceasing element that is necessary for our justification. We repent of our sins and accept Christ once and for all. We receive the Holy Spirit and righteousness lives within us as a deposit of things to come ( Ephesians 1: 13-14). In all cases repentance and turning away from unrighteousness is a divine act that should not cease until the day of perfection comes. For today we are looking through a glass darkly. But the time is coming when we will know Him just as He knows us (1 Corinthians 13: 12).

Doug

[sw]

Doug,
I spent the past hour making a lengthy reply and then when copying 1 John 4:17 , I lost all that I’d typed☹️. So here goes again.

I have no idea how I came across that I ever thought that a Christian would not have repentance as a part of their life. Jesus have us the gift of Righteousness (Romans 5:17). We are currently Righteous as Jesus is even though we still sin(1 John 4:17). So, we’ve been forgiven of our sins so that we can have fellowship with God. The sin debt has been removed. Satan wants us to feel dirty. Jesus has cleansed us through His blood to allow God to have full fellowship with His creation. Satan wants to spoil that, first by keeping the unsaved, unsaved; and by keeping the saved feeling guilty of their sins, which still occur. He wants to spoil that relationship. Repentance - to turn away from, to do a 180 degree turn, to change our mind( certainly as in Acts 2:38 meaning for the Jews to change from believing that Jesus wasn’t the Messiah to believing that He is the Messiah). Today, the term “repentance” has taken on an entirely different meaning such as feeling bad about our sin and asking for forgiveness so that once again we can have momentary right standing with God until we sin again and go thru the exercise again, and again, and again..... Satan loves that!

So, should the Christian repent. Of course. I say, “I’m sorry, please help me not do that again, etc”. The Christian who is saying this is saying it from a gratitude and as a loving response for what he has been given. The Christian who is saying it to again get forgiveness is doing it out of wanting to get something - forgiveness, again. I realize that from before well before the Reformation through today, this concept of continuing to try to get right with God again through confession of sins, obtaining forgiveness has become such a way of life that it’s just taken for granted. Satan love that. He is crafty.

Hebrews 10:14-24 says that He has made perfect forever, those who are being made Holy. Jesus was the perfect and final sacrifice for the world’s sin. Yet, people have alters in churches!! To bring their sins? Are their sins still being held against them? Is it in, out, in out...?

Satan wants to keep non-Christians where they are. He wants to keep Christians from realizing what they have in Christ. He wants to take away the meaning of that priceless gift.

Love is a greater motivator than Law. Paul says, the law killed me, the law was against me, the law brings forth sin(Rom 7:11, 7:23, 4:15, 7:5, etc). Under Grace, the Christian will live up to the precepts of the goodness of the law through love, an inward motivation - Law written on their hearts, than they ever could through feeling “under law”. The Gospel of Grace delivered through Paul , the mystery revealed only to Paul Col 1:26, Eph 3:2-6) sheds light into the unique gospel only given to Paul. Galatians 2, Acts 15, part of 20 & 21 all indicate that the Jewish believer in the Messiahship of Jesus were remaining under law. This is way too great a subject to try to cover in posts on a muzzleloading board.

I’m sorry that anything I’d typed seemed to infer that a Christian shouldn’t be repentant of his/her sins. I repent because I’m sorry for what I did but not to get what I already have, forgiveness. Does your spouse, have to ask for forgiveness for every possible wrong she has done to you, known or even unknown to her? Your children? When we know we’ve done something should we apologize or express remorse? Of course. Jesus’ sacrifice paid it all. I was accepted and forgiven in believing in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus (1 Cor 15:1-4) which is in accordance with Heb 11 where Paul/whoever states that “faith” saves. I’ve just not found that asking forgiveness brings about justification with God. However, true repentance for sin is only natural for the Christian. I’m sorry when I sin and I apologize to God and Jesus for those sins.

[dougedwards]

>>>This is way too great a subject to try to cover in posts on a muzzleloading board.<<<

Amen Brother! But actually, it isn't that complicated. When the Holy Spirit is living big in the life of a born again Christian that Christian has a great desire to verbally repent of His sins. Not only to God but to others that he trusts (James 5:16). In human terms we tend to associate repentance with guilt and shame when actually it is a cleansing and a renewing. We are asking for God's power to be as He is.

I was once very active in a program known as "Celebrate Recovery". By far, the greatest hurdle that these people who were seeking to recover from the consequences of sin was internal shame. Deep inside many of them didn't think that they deserved forgiveness. They had that part right but had a hard time accepting God's undeserved grace. This grace makes no more sense to us than it did to the Prodigal Son's older brother. We think that we should reap what we sow and we do until we accept God's surpassing love for us. Surely, we won't totally understand all of this until we are face to face with Him but we can still accept those things that we have no perfect understanding of. I can think of nothing that describes this process of grace any better than the 2nd chapter of Ephesians.

Great discussion.

Doug

[sw]

Doug,
I think we are in agreement. The change from Hebrew -> Greek -> current usage of the word, “repent” has muddied the water. Going to the priest in a confessional and making sacrifices (money, hail Marys , etc) or payment for sins, to going forward taking your sins to an alter in the church service (guess Jesus dying on the cross wasn’t alter enough , with the perfect blood sacrifice), praying for forgiveness of sins (when righteousness comes through faith and belief in Jesus death, burial and resurrection - or Paul got it wrong) just is mystifying to me. Yes, I was in a very legalistic church/denomination for most of my life. “Seek Me with all your heart and you will find Me” Deut 4:29 and a # of other places, has it right.
Repentance for the Christian is just like forgiveness is now that we’re under Grace. We forgive because we’ve been forgiven NOT we forgive to get forgiven. It’s pretty hard to forgive others when you don’t feel forgiven or have to be kept being forgiven over and over.
We repent because we are sorry for what we’ve done. We’re apologizing to God/Jesus. No effect on our forgiveness. That’s a done deal.

[dougedwards]

The language used centuries ago may have drastically different meanings and connotations than within a contemporary society. Even today and within any language the meaning of words can flip flop in just a 30 year period. This makes comprehension of scripture a work in progress as we receive direction from the Holy Spirit. Throw in the translations from the Hebrew mind to the Greek culture and then again into Latin and then again into English.....we may have a struggle to properly understand.

For example: 1 Samuel 15:11 says that God regretted making Saul the king of Israel. Later in the same chapter, 1 Samuel 15:29, it says that God NEVER changes His mind because only humans change their mind. I had to scratch my head on that one but I later understood that God can't "regret" doing anything as we understand that term. God knows the outcome of His decisions before He makes them. There are many such seemingly contradictory statements in the Bible until you sit and analyze.

A few years ago I wrote a "History of the Christian Church" on an archery site which had a Christian sub-forum at the time. This required much research but it sickened me to discover how the message of Jesus had become so distorted and corrupted by religion in such a short time after the resurrection.  Many people were murdered because of deviating beliefs and the "church" eventually controlled the masses with the most drastic requirements of endless personal sacrifices in hopes that God might be pleased enough with His subjects. It was quite a depressing endeavor for me.

It is good that we can discuss this here without killing anybody. I think that when we get to heaven we will be surprised that we didn't have everything right. But we will only have to have one thing right. Our trust in Him!!!

Doug

[sw]

Doug,
👍