300 yd targets------.45

[Harley]

Yesterday was the first time I ever fired the .45 Pac-Nor at targets set past 100 yards. At 100 yards my groups had averaged close to 1/2" using a load of 12/47 SR4759/A2015, a wool wad, Parker 275BE and the CCIM primer. This load generates a modest 2307 fps MV, but was very effective on the one long-range buck I shot with it.

So, I wanted to determine if that hunting kill was luck or what I might reliably expect every time from this rifle.

The only change I made was with the BP; I had previously used Pete's SS BP, but recently bought a used RB recessed BP and added my homemade VL (<0.0315").

Note: The RB plug is much more recessed than Pete's BP, resulting in a considerably higher "witness" mark on my ramrod.

For all shots the distance was 300 yds and the temperature ranged from 47*-51*.

After firing two fouling shots through a thoroughly cleaned barrel I shot the following 5-shot group



I was disappointed (and discouraged) at the group size and ready to blame it on a swirling 10-15 mph wind, but, because I had driven so far and taken so long to set up my bench, flags and target, I decided to shoot a follow-up 3-shot group.




Discussion: Although I followed the same between shot routine I always use (one minimally dampened patch followed by one dry patch), and fired my usual two fouling shots, the average MV of the first group was significantly lower than the 2307 fps that was expected.

The second group MV averaged what I expected, and the group size confirms the rifle's capability at this range, I think.

Why did it take so many shots to build up to the expected MV? Was it the colder weather (I previously had shot in 60-70's temperatures)? Was it the switch to the RB-modified BP? I guess the only way to know for certain would be to clean the rifle, then fire groups with Pete's BP, then clean the rifle and fire groups with RB's BP.

I'd appreciate any ideas.

Harley

[Richard]

If you took the fifth shot out of the equation, your four shot group was definitely capable of killing the 340 yard deer! If thats any consolation.
This was sabotless? I would think maybe the buildup of copper on the rifling, but your fifth shot in the firs groups should have been near your three shot second group? Hmmmmmmm?
Richard

[smokeeter]

I may have missed it, are your wool wads lubricated? I noticed when I use greased veggie wads loading is easier and I think fouling is reduced.

[Harley]

Thanks, Richard. I fired a total of 10 shots, yesterday, from a clean barrel. I've done this many times in the past with consistently good groups after one fouling shot (at 100 yds). In support of your theory, though, I just transposed that 5th shot into the second group: It would have resulted in a 4-shot group of ~3". So, maybe you are on to something, but I don't understand why I never before needed seven fouling shots before the rifle grouped well.

Harley

[Harley]

Smokeeter, I have always used dry wool.

Harley

[bigmoose]

What ever the reason, the second group is excellent plus. Not bad if it was an 100 yard group

I proclaim you SABOTLESS EXPERT FIRST CLASS

[Harley]

Bigmoose, all that birthday wine is going to your head.

Harley

[rexxer]

Harley
The Bad Bull muzzleloaders recommend shooting their guns with lubricated wad. I think they shoot the 275 grainers at 3000 fps. It might be worth a try!

[nitro1947]

good shooting harley ..no idea why it took that many shots ..but i find that the more i shoot the better my groups ..best are always at the end of the days shooting

[Harley]

Just the opposite for me, Nitro; I get sloppy as I get tired.

Rexxer and Smokeeter, I hope I don't have to start experimenting with the lubed wads.

Harley

[sw]

:)Lloyd, it takes my gun a couple of shots minimum to settle in, sabotless. I use lub'd wads just because that's what I have. Sub-MOA, 300yd 3-shot groups out of a hunting rifle of any kind is extremely impressive. There is a big difference in shooting a hunting rifle that has significant recoil and a lower power scope as opposed to a bench type stock, BR level rest, and a tgt scope. That is an amazing group! Also, the very slight velocity variation! Richard - how does this compare with BR level, longer range Rifles- std dev wise(308, 300 Win Mag,6.5/284,etc)? The velocity is so close!
Maybe there is some merit to the 45 sabotless.

[Harley]

Are you tweaking tails, Steve?

Harley

[youp50]

8 and a quarter inch group at three hundred yards is the same as a dead deer at 300 yards, swirling wind and all.

Your last group is actually a .584 MOA and the first one is a respectable 2.76 MOA.

[bigmoose]

Harley,

When you get to 75, its time to ice the Cristal, I have some 85 that will go down very nice.

[rbinar]

I have to say I'm fairly impressed. I've seen many high dollar center fire rifles that would envy the targets you've listed here.

You have 7 of 8 shots within what looks like about 5 inches at 300 yards. Though you may think that is mildly disappointing it shows considerable accuracy.

As far as the speed difference I have to ask if you felt any difference in loading pressure with any of the bullets? If not I might suggest you try the other vent/plug with the same loads to eliminate a variable.

Also you might try a modified swabbing process. Perhaps if you only dry patch you'll reach consistency of speed with just the fouling shot(s).

Another thing you might consider is you have more speed available if you want it. I say that because sometimes loads with slightly higher pressure are more consistent. BUT I do mean slightly. This may not be an option if you want to stay in a recoil level.

I remember when getting 200 yard accuracy was considered such a leap forward. Now so many of you are actually at or beyond 300 yards I'm struggling to keep up. When we get to 400 that's it for me, I can't even see that far let alone shoot.

[Dave W]

Fantastic shooting Lloyd!
Sounds like you need more testing with both plugs.

[Deleted]

harley if mine will do that Ill be turning backflips, good shooting.

have not tried the idea yet but when its done Ill stick it in the mail....Bill

[craigf]

Harley, I hope you try this with Pete's plug soon too. You are doing some great shooting!

[deadeye]

harley-excellent ,this is what im lookin for,think you or anyone else that is .45 sabotless could lob a few @ 375 or 400yds?? i would love to see prints@ those distances also.

[ET]

Harley

300-yds to me is a long distance and that is some fine shooting as others have said.

Are you sure you weren't born with a muzzle-loader/rifle in your hand? ;D

Ed

[Deleted]

deadeye, when my barrel gets screwed on Ill promise some 400 yd shooting, I dont know about Harley size groups, Ill probably miss the whole board @ 400 but Ill post pictures, good, bad and ugly.....Bill

[edge]

My only problem is there is no aiming point!

If you shoot 5 times at a deer then it is one tough deer ;D

Whatever you do, leave it loaded, or load it every day, it is the first shot that really matters.
At that distance, your bull may be jumping in the scope, by put some hair there and I bet you can put them all in the spot, and definitely the first one!

edge.

PS can you show the aim point on those two targets?

[Richard]

SW..........those shots would definitely qualify Extreme Spread wise for LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLooooooooooooonnnnnnngggggg range shooting. We strive for single digit ES's but will settle for 10 to 15 fps. Of course at 300 yards, its not that critical..........though with the low BC of the ML bullets, its a different story.
Richard

[Harley]

Edge, I don't understand why not seeing the aim point is a problem for you. I made no attempt to zero in the rifle at that range; I just sort of bore-sighted it at 50 yards, clicked in about three inches of elevation and hoped all the shots would hit the paper at 300.

I do still have the paper and will picture both groups relative to the aim point later Saturday.

Harley

[Dave W]

Do you know how high you were at 100yds and how much drop was involved?

[Harley]

Edge, here are the groups relative to the aim points. I hope you see something significant. I should add that the group with MV of 2269 was 9.5" low; the 2304 group was 7" low.

Thanks.

Harley

[Harley]

DaveW, my ballistics program says the first group (2269 MV) would have been ~12" high at 100 yards and was actually ~9.5" low at 300; the second group (2304 MV) would have been ~6.3" high at 100 yards and was actually ~7" low at 300 yards.

Harley

[deadeye]

for people shooting long distance (300 plus) a mil-dot reticle will help w/poa,i will list my approx's that will get you on paper@ 400, w/a 200yd zero @ 375yds -3dots,@400yds -4dots, i know these will vary but should get you on paper with mv's2200 & higher w275gn-300gn bullets,after all in this stage is to print groups only,i hope other .45 sabotless shooters will experiment, man im starting to reach for my wallet again!& ps @ those distance's 1mph of wind difference@full value = approx 3" of drift

[shooter]

Harley.That is some Awesome Shooting!!!!!!

[Harley]

Youp50, your estimate of .584 MOA is about what I get at 100 yards.

Bigmoose, we are both in the same half-decade.

RB, there was some difference in loading pressure among the charges; I didn't record it, but in the first group there was one that seated more easily; in the second group #3 was significantly harder to seat. Dry patching: I've tried it, but was unable to prevent buildup; the method I use has always worked in the past. I'm inclined to think it is the difference between the BP's.

Craig, I'm leaning towards the BP's, too.

Deadeye, I think "lob" is getting close to the right term for 400 yards with a MV of 2300 fps, although that would still mean a little more than 1300 fps on target.

Right now, my plan is to test the BP's against each other to determine which (if either) more quickly results in a stabilized MV. One variable, though, that I can't control is the vent aperture: Pete's plug is now ~.0330"; the RB, with my own VL, is <.0315".

Short of visiting Richard I don't have access to 400 yards. I'd really like to try it, though. I just called a friend, a deputy sheriff in a rural county, who said he'll find a place for me to set up. Hope so.

Harley