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Post by Earnhardt on Dec 16, 2018 9:08:30 GMT -5
Quickbooks shows that Reloder 16 is an ultra slow burning powder in the .45 SMLs
When used with a heavier bullet such as the 325 MH or the 335 ASG bullet, Reloder 16 works in the same way that IMR4831 does....while keeping the pressure at ot below 50,000 psi
Using a powder load between 120 and 135 grains will result in speeds in excess of 3100 fps
Has anyone used Reloder 16 with a heavier bullet in a .45 SML for longer periods of time?
Have you used it in a wide range of temps?
Is Reloder 16 very temp insensitive in a .45 SML, as it is in a 6.5 Creedmoor?
I shot 3 groups with it yesterday, with my Brux B-17, 31" barreled .458....and the results were pretty amazing.
I was trying to find out what powder load the gun/bullet lked best.
Very high velocity, low ES, pretty good groups...but of course it kicks like a mule, even in an 18 lb gun.
Anyone with experience with Reloder 16 in a .45 SML?
Thanks
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Post by Earnhardt on Dec 16, 2018 9:54:34 GMT -5
And for the life of me...I can't figure out how to uplaod pics to this site anymore without Photobucket...
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Post by lwh723 on Dec 16, 2018 10:00:23 GMT -5
I haven’t. I was getting 3030fps last week with h4895 and a 340gr bullet. 28.5” barrel. ASG gen2 LRMP. Hang on for that ride lol. ES on 3 shot string was 1 FPS lol. But the 300gr bullet at 3150fps shot a better group but ES was 30fps. Both were under 1/2 MOA at 200 yards though.
I know nick has been using reloaded 17.
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Post by Earnhardt on Dec 16, 2018 10:35:00 GMT -5
Ya, I was using 335 ASGs
With Reloder 16 I shot a couple 3/4" groups
Velocity was 3231, 3239, 3220
Kicked like a mule...
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Post by edge on Dec 16, 2018 11:21:56 GMT -5
And for the life of me...I can't figure out how to uplaod pics to this site anymore without Photobucket... I have used postimages.org/There are others, but I suspect that at some future time these will want cash and become another Photophucket! edge. |
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Post by Earnhardt on Dec 16, 2018 12:17:35 GMT -5
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Post by joelmoney on Dec 16, 2018 13:07:48 GMT -5
I am using a 325 Aeromax 120 grains of RL 16 DI in my 25” break action with great results. The load is a tad over 2700 FPS on LabRadar and has a healthy recoil. Someone was nice enough to trace this load for me at under 40,000.
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Post by Earnhardt on Dec 16, 2018 18:14:06 GMT -5
I am using a 325 Aeromax 120 grains of RL 16 DI in my 25” break action with great results. The load is a tad over 2700 FPS on LabRadar and has a healthy recoil. Someone was nice enough to trace this load for me at under 40,000. My velocities are with a Magnetospeed Quickloads shows that with your 25" barrel, a 325 grain bullet and 120 grains of RL-16, the velocity and pressure should be ~ 2868 fps and ~ 42,460 fps. So you are way lower than what QL predicts... But with DI you are really hitting the load with LRM flame! How tight do you size your bullets? Light 1-hand loading pressure, or heavy 2-hand loading pressure? I think your powder/load might be pressure starved, and your barrel is a little too short for an ultra slow powder such as RL-16 in a .45 SML This can be fixed several ways...add a little more powder, add a heavier bullet OR tighten the bullet sizing a little BUT, once you do that... you ARE going to see a huge jump in velocity and pressure. So please be careful Because then the powder will be working in the pressure range it not only likes, but it is supposed to operate it, at it's highest effiency... Bottom line, I think your powder load is too small, your bullet is too light (not likely), or your bullet sizing is too loose. Because your Di ignition system is throwing the flame at the powder! So that is not the problem. IMR 4831 is the exact same way in a .45 SML as RL-16 SEEMS to be..I don't have enough loads through this gun with RL-16, to give a 100% nod of certainty. I have many loads under my belt with IMR4831 And Quickloads says I'm on the right track so far with RL-16 With ultra slow burning powders, I've noticed that the tighter the bullet, the faster the velocity, up to a certain point where the bullet velocity levels off... Meaning you can keep the powder load the same, but if you size ultra loose bullets, you have a slower velocity and lower pressure But the pressure/velocity will build as you tighten the loosely sized bullet up to a certain point. Then velocities level off. Once you reach that point, you know the powder likes the loading pressure, bullet sizing (and the pressure the powder load is creating) I'm using CCI-M 209 primers, a .040" bushing, and a larger PFC than stock. With a rear sealing plug. I'm also using 132 grains of RL-16, and the velocity is in the ball park for what QL says it should be... 3163 fps and 48,977 psi I'll keep using RL-16 over the course of the winter when the temps drop into the -10 to -25*F to see if the velocities hold up. So I think my 31" barrel, and 2 hand loading pressure, are the main reasons my velocity is quite a bit higher than yours Good luck! |
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Post by joelmoney on Dec 16, 2018 20:38:41 GMT -5
I am using light one handed pressure for seating. The accuracy and speed I am more than happy with for for a break action. If I were shooting a bolt gun I might try to up things a bit. Recoil is quite stout enough in a break action gun.
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Post by Earnhardt on Dec 16, 2018 20:51:44 GMT -5
My load with 125 grains of Rl-16 went like this cold/cleaned out bore was the first shot...sized at a average one hand loading pressure. -16 1/2 on the Swinglock Sizing Die
3107 (cold bore and clean barrel), 3143, 3135 ....with 3-4 minutes between shots
My load with 130 grains of Rl-16: sized at -15 1/2 on the Swinglock Sizing Die light 2 hand loading pressure...gun sat for ~ 1/2 hour
3174 (cold bore), 3170, 3155...with 3-4 minutes between shots
My load with 135 grains of RL-16:bullet sized at -15 on the Swinglock Sizing Die average to heavy, 2-hand loading pressure...gun sat for a couple of hours
3231 (cold bore), 3239, 3220...with 3-4 minutes between shots
So joelmoney, since you are using a light one-hand loading pressure, I'd be VERY reluctant to tighten that load up to a heavy 2-hands of loading pressure...your velocity and pressure might jump quite a bit....
Also are you seeing quite a bit of flames come out the barrel when shooting at dusk/dawn? Have you tried it?
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scat
Spike
Posts: 37
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Post by scat on Dec 16, 2018 21:26:56 GMT -5
One thing that I have learned about using QL with muzzleloaders is that calculated load pressure AND velocity rarely ever are correct simultaneously. The reason being is that we do not engrave the projectile and have no neck tension to overcome either. I calculate for pressure and barrel time which I have a very good record achieving both as Bestill can attest to on the loads I ran for him. Pressure and barrel time are really all that matter to me in load development as accuracy is always best on a harmonic node. Once I started calculating for pressure, everything began falling into place, allowing accuracy prediction within 2 grains. Joel's load is very close in pressure to QL prediction and is on a harmonic node as I predicted before tracing it. Joel can share the traced velocity in my 28" bbl if he chooses to. I agree that it is likely pressure starved but he wanted to keep the recoil manageable in the break action gun and it appears to be working well for him. I also agree that loading pressure can have a dramatic effect on chamber pressure and a slight effect on velocity.
While I don't use RL16 in a 45 since my bolt guns are now 40's, I can definitely say that when using la very slow for caliber powder/bullet combination, there is a phenomena that comes into play and I have traces to back it up. The charge ignites and the initial chamber pressure spikes. The bullet actually outruns the pressure wave, again due to lack of engravement friction. The bullet approaches the muzzle, and before exiting, the pressure wave catches up to the bullet and a secondary pressure spike is generated that CAN be greater than the primary spike. This typically happens in longer barrels. That is why I've started building 40 cal's no longer than 24 to 26". I have read that a fellow once knowingly loaded a very light for caliber bullet and slow powder in his rifle that blew the muzzle off the barrel. I have seen secondary spikes over 60KPSI so I am a believer.
I, personally, like to see pressures 50 to 55KPSI because that is where most of the powders in this burn rate range were designed to operate. Thing is that in a 45, with really slow powders, it either takes a huge load of powder or a very heavy bullet to get there. The heavier bullet would be the safest way to go to avoid secondary spikes of pressure.
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Post by Dave W on Dec 16, 2018 22:19:45 GMT -5
Did you ever try R16 in your .416 Josh?
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Post by joelmoney on Dec 16, 2018 22:39:29 GMT -5
There is a decent amount of flame and it erodes the break. These were signs I knew ment I was not fully burning the powder. It burns CLEAN shoots well and point of impact didn’t seem to shift from 90 degrees to 10.
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Post by Earnhardt on Dec 16, 2018 23:18:19 GMT -5
Dave, I did try RL-16 in my .416 last winter when you informed me about it's great temp insensitivity...
Looking at my notes I only shot it on 2 occasions...with ES's from 15 to 20
That Savage Target action now wears a 30" 6.5 Creedmoor barrel....OMG...frickin' tack drivin' laser beam!
Once I find a repeater Savage action for the 6.5 CM barrel, I'll put the .416, or 30" .451 barrel back on it.
Joel, just a thought... you can trade loading pressure for powder in your gun...
If you found a very accurate velocity node... you can tighten the bullet sizing a little, and get to 2-hands of loading pressure, and then drop in powder payload, and stay at the same velocity node.
All the while using less powder, and not eroding your brake, or creating the Northern Lights with the unburned powder leaving the barrel
Loading pressure goes up...powder load goes down...find your node
Just an idea man...
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Post by joelmoney on Dec 17, 2018 0:12:40 GMT -5
It’s something I might play with in the future. I plan on working on my .40 and Aeromax bullets this winter.
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Post by lwh723 on Dec 17, 2018 8:57:26 GMT -5
Joel how far have you shot that load?
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Post by edge on Dec 17, 2018 9:12:55 GMT -5
One thing that I have learned about using QL with muzzleloaders is that calculated load pressure AND velocity rarely ever are correct simultaneously. SNIP. Absolutely agree. IMO, there are so many variables with muzzleloaders that can't be completely accounted for with regard to pressures and velocities. I like to use the highest predicted pressure, using QL, Powley, and if available a 100%+ full case load from a manual. My thinking is that I probably can't get much higher than predicted in a cartridge. Most likely my pressures will be lower, but if the stars align and pressure is as high as predicted then I am still OK. If I start throwing extra powder down the bore, and those same stars align, then my pressure may be much more than predicted. edge. |
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Post by Earnhardt on Dec 17, 2018 18:06:13 GMT -5
scat, good info...
Luke, the first time I shot RL-16 in a .45 SML was this weekend.
Maybe 500 next weekend
Farther than 500 when the time allows...
I'm still sticking to QL for MY load info guys...
And yes our SMLs velocities are normally faster than what QL says is should be in my experience.
I'm not changing my loads in this gun.
H4198, H322 and IMR 3031 in my lighter hunting guns
IMR 4831 and now Reloder 16, in the (2) big boomer .45's I have
I'm going to do a comparative test between IMR4831 and Reloder 16 when I get a chance.
I'm going to take some slo mo video of the barrel when firing 132 grain loads, of each powder, with the same gun and bullet.
How much flame out the barrel with each powder?...
Fun stuff...
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Post by joelmoney on Dec 17, 2018 18:25:08 GMT -5
Joel how far have you shot that load? Regretfully I only have shot out to 200 with that load I am hoping to get it a little further this summer maybe this spring. I might have to pester Nick this spring and go down and shoot there. Maybe we can stretch the break actions legs. |
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Post by lwh723 on Dec 18, 2018 0:07:29 GMT -5
Joel how far have you shot that load? Regretfully I only have shot out to 200 with that load I am hoping to get it a little further this summer maybe this spring. I might have to pester Nick this spring and go down and shoot there. Maybe we can stretch the break actions legs. Ouch... seems like a lot of powder and a big bullet to only be shooting to 200 yards with a break action. But if it's working for you, good deal. Hope you've got a chiropractor you like. |
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scat
Spike
Posts: 37
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Post by scat on Dec 18, 2018 12:54:09 GMT -5
I think Joel's objective was a heavy bullet at a decent velocity with low chamber pressure. I think he has achieved his goal. 300gr to 450gr bullets are the norm for 4570 and being as Joel isn't limited to the case capacity of a 4570, he is able to achieve higher velocities with equal or less pressure using a larger payload of slow powder.
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Post by joelmoney on Dec 18, 2018 15:55:54 GMT -5
Scat that is exactly what I wanted. The recoil with a the adjustable gill break I have on it tames recoil well. My limiting factors are recoil and twist rate of the gun. My range only goes to 200yards and the areas I can shoot further are inconvenient but I was able to get my 40 cal out to 500 this year. If time allows I’ll get real drops out to 500 with the break action as well. Shooting R-16 in both guns was another reason for using the powder in my 45.
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Post by nick50471 on Dec 18, 2018 16:40:05 GMT -5
Joel how far have you shot that load? Regretfully I only have shot out to 200 with that load I am hoping to get it a little further this summer maybe this spring. I might have to pester Nick this spring and go down and shoot there. Maybe we can stretch the break actions legs. Just give me a call. My steel targets get lonely. |
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Post by nick50471 on Dec 18, 2018 16:48:37 GMT -5
I haven’t used RL16
I am currently using 92.5gr of RL17. That pushes the Fury 360gr FAT at 2750
QL is way more accurate for our muzzies than people think. My simulated loads in both my 45 and 375 are typically less than 50fps different than what labradar reads.
There are many variables that need to be corrected for accurate muzzy data. Anyone can call me or PM me for info.
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Post by buckstuds on Dec 18, 2018 20:41:20 GMT -5
I really like the ease of using sabots. As i have read, the reloader family is tops in temp not being a factor. I really like the fury lead tip bonded 250 gr bullet. Great on game performance. Can some one give me a starting point for a break action staying under 40,000 psi. Lmrp used for ignition. I would like to see 2350-2500 fps. Very nice article in magazine about reloader powder.
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Post by joelmoney on Dec 18, 2018 22:46:17 GMT -5
Buckstuds you looking for 10x data?
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Post by Earnhardt on Dec 24, 2018 16:06:06 GMT -5
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Post by Dave W on Dec 24, 2018 20:45:01 GMT -5
Good shooting, what a thumper load!
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Post by rambler on Dec 24, 2018 20:50:34 GMT -5
Distance??
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Post by joelmoney on Dec 24, 2018 23:20:59 GMT -5
Nice
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