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Post by hornet22savage on Nov 5, 2017 14:23:17 GMT -5
What is everyone favourite case tumbler?
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Post by AJ on Nov 5, 2017 15:17:15 GMT -5
For walnut or corncob tumbling I found the Dillon CV-2001 to be the top dog. Although stainless steel media and a rotating tumbler cleans much better than anything else out there. A buddy uses a small 1.25 cu/ft cement mixer with the stainless steel media. He can clean a butt load of brass at once. |
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Post by nick50471 on Nov 5, 2017 23:05:40 GMT -5
 Using any media to clean brass cases is an absolute waste of money. Cleaning brass part on part with a cleaning/burnishing compound mixed with water is the best. Yes reloaders have used ground up treated cob and walnut shell for eons. Steel pins do well but are extremely expensive, not to mention the fact that you half to have a machine capable of turning steel media that weighs around 300lbs/cuft. You can clean brass in any bench top tumbler part on part. Hell you could do it in 5 gallon pail if you wanted to shake it for 30 minutes. I design equipment and processes for this very purpose. While we still provide equipment and media for cleaning cases the old way once manufacturers try part on part they never go back. We do still use media for cleaning/burnishing bullets. It takes one heck of a machine to turn lead in a vibratory tumbler. This is 12 minutes in a high energy tumbler part on part. Once fired range brass 9mm. |
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Post by nick50471 on Nov 5, 2017 23:09:03 GMT -5
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Post by 7mmfreak on Nov 6, 2017 11:46:00 GMT -5
I use a Thumler's Tumbler Model B High Speed to clean case and coat bullets. Works great for both purposes. I clean cases with steel media and coat bullets with ceramic media but both can be done as part on part.
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Post by nick50471 on Nov 14, 2017 11:59:28 GMT -5
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Post by nick50471 on Nov 14, 2017 12:02:39 GMT -5
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Post by billyboy on Nov 14, 2017 17:56:45 GMT -5
What is your new cleaning compound?
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Post by AJ on Nov 14, 2017 18:41:43 GMT -5
Will your media clean the primer pockets and flash holes like the steel pins?
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Post by nick50471 on Nov 14, 2017 21:06:28 GMT -5
Will your media clean the primer pockets and flash holes like the steel pins? No media. And yes the the primer pocket and flash hole will get cleaned. You also do not have to worry about a pin sticking in the case and ruining a die. |
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Post by 7mmfreak on Nov 14, 2017 21:21:21 GMT -5
With appropriate sized media I've never had pins stick in the flash hole. I will say though that you can get pockets clean with a sonic cleaner and a 50/50 solution of water/vinegar so it doesn't require any media.
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Post by nick50471 on Nov 14, 2017 21:45:47 GMT -5
With appropriate sized media I've never had pins stick in the flash hole. I will say though that you can get pockets clean with a sonic cleaner and a 50/50 solution of water/vinegar so it doesn't require any media. Getting pins stuck in the flash hole is not common. Some guys use Finish nails not pins. The nails cause issues with the flash holes as one would expect. most of the issues with pins is with 223 and any small necked case. The pins like to hide in the case. The press reall doesn’t care if there is a steel pin inside. The die has serious problems with it. Most manufacturers tumble part on part. Some that hat still use steel use ballcones and not pins. The ballcones can be sized to not fit into the case. |
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Post by 7mmfreak on Nov 27, 2017 19:31:32 GMT -5
Since this thread started I have shot right at 500 rounds of centerfire and out of curiosity have deprimed and cleaned all of them. Part on part tumbling (with an acidic solution) will get a case clean enough to run it through the sizing die and use it but it will not get primer pockets clean with any more than about 30% certainty. Sonic with the same solution yields about he same result. Tumbling with the same solution and steel media is head and shoulders faster and cleaner; the faster part meaning less peening of the case mouth which had been trimmed, chamfered, and deburred the firing before.
I sized the cases after cleaning which meant I had to get the Imperial Wax off. I used three methods I have used before: manual cleaning with isopropyl alcohol or acetone, sonic cleaning, and vibratory tumbling with corn cob. Vibratory cleaning with corn cob is by far the fastest and most effective so I don't think you can say definitively that it is a waste of time or money, you just need to know when and where to use it.
As a result, I will probably modify my initial clean to be part on part as it is sufficient but not as good as with steel media but is way less work on the back side since there is no media to separate. I might make and exception for suppressed gas gun cases but for bolt guns with good chambers, the cases don't get dirty. That said, we will see how much more often I feel like I need to trim/chamfer/debur because part on part makes the case mouths look beat up but only rounds on target will tell the actual difference. I will continue to tumble the lube off with corn cob because it is way faster than any other method and only requires a fast bath to get the cob residue off and you are ready to prime.
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Post by nick50471 on Nov 27, 2017 23:29:37 GMT -5
I work for Hammond Roto-Finish. A privately owned company in Kalamazoo, MI. We have been providing both chemistry and equipment for the ammunition industry for decades. Normally we don't get involved with smaller operations. Cost justification is real and we understand that a company has to do a lot of brass to justify our smallest machine at $30k. I personally take calls weekly on this very topic from guys in their basement to the folks at Hornady. I'm currently working on a system to do 30 million reloads/year for a company out west. Part on Part.
I agree Keith that it's not for everyone. Some peoples standards are above and beyond. Those people still use steel.
We recently have made an effort to reach smaller markets with our compounds. Our compounds can be used both part on part or with steel. These are the same compounds currently used today by the truckload. Some manufacturers actually sell our compound. They relabel it and sell it under a different name.
In both our lab testing and customer testing we have proven that part on part will give you 95-98% of the finish that steel will give. Primer pockets and the ID being the areas most noticeable. Again steel media when not properly cared for or separated will destroy a die.
In decades of service to the industry we have found that as manufacturers grow in size the method of finishing cases changes.
Everyone starts with cob. Then they switch to steel. Then they go to a combo machine that will do both at the same time. Inner channel has steel then the parts transfer into the outer heated channel. Then they ditch media altogether for part on part. Some do a secondary part on part depending on what color they want the brass.
The type a machine used also plays a huge part in this. Tumbling is a generic word that gets us into trouble. A tumbling barrel (cement mixer,rock tumbler) is a very low energy machine. The parts and media slide around and do very little tumbling. Risers can be added to aide in the tumbling effect but only help slightly.
Vibratory tumblers come in two basic designs. Bowls and tubs. Bowls are round and the mass rolls in two directions across the channel and with the channel.
Tubs roll only in one direction. across the channel. Vibratory tumblers have much more energy than tumbling barrels. This energy helps clean and lowers process times.
Centrifugal Disc machines are very high energy. These machines are round and have a spinning rotor in the bottom of the bowl that spins and rolls the mass. This is about 50% more energy than vibratory finishing. This is the machine used by most higher volume case cleaning operations.
Are we the only name in ammunition finishing, absolutely not. Our competitors work hard at dethroning us, but that is a good thing. Keeps me on my toes and me thinking of different ways to finish parts.
As for bullets the dual channel vibratory machines we manufacture are used thru out the industry. No one else makes them.
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Post by 7mmfreak on Nov 28, 2017 7:18:01 GMT -5
I have no doubt you are right for industrial use. For the OP i think it lacks context because it reads like you are telling him a sledge hammer is the best tool when what he needs is a smaller hammer because you are driving rail road spikes and he is driving 16d nails.
For the home reloader, you have three machines to choose from that fit in recreational budgets: vibratory, sonic, and rotary. All work fine as do the cleaning chems/media but steel is the fastest and cleanest IME.
Yes, steel will destroy things if not cleared but if you aren't anally careful about your reloading (and shooting for that matter) you are wrong and will never become a handloader. Part on part is nearly as clean (functionally) but the brass will be much more yellow than the brilliant color from steel tumbling. Cob leaves a shine somewhere in between but needs to have media punched out of flash holes and needs to be washed due to residue.
In the natural progression you talked about, I have acquired all three types and use each for certain things. The cool thing about the sonic cleaners is the ability to use them on gun parts you can't clean with the other cleaning machines without damaging them. The downside is you can't coat bullets if you want to.
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Post by nick50471 on Nov 28, 2017 9:32:35 GMT -5
I have no doubt you are right for industrial use. For the OP i think it lacks context because it reads like you are telling him a sledge hammer is the best tool when what he needs is a smaller hammer because you are driving rail road spikes and he is driving 16d nails. For the home reloader, you have three machines to choose from that fit in recreational budgets: vibratory, sonic, and rotary. All work fine as do the cleaning chems/media but steel is the fastest and cleanest IME. Yes, steel will destroy things if not cleared but if you aren't anally careful about your reloading (and shooting for that matter) you are wrong and will never become a handloader. Part on part is nearly as clean (functionally) but the brass will be much more yellow than the brilliant color from steel tumbling. Cob leaves a shine somewhere in between but needs to have media punched out of flash holes and needs to be washed due to residue. In the natural progression you talked about, I have acquired all three types and use each for certain things. The cool thing about the sonic cleaners is the ability to use them on gun parts you can't clean with the other cleaning machines without damaging them. The downside is you can't coat bullets if you want to. We are definitely the sledge hammer. That is exactly what we are trying to change. We have allowed other companies to profit from our products for too long. It time we start making our products available to the home reloader. I admit we really struggle with how to bring it to that market. We have been making sledge hammers for 90+ years. It's all we know. Our compound in a small pneumatic paint shaker provides an amazing finish in 5-10 minutes. |
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