Getting started.

[hornet22savage]

I have been wanting to get into the reloading game for some time now. I went out and purchased the Lee Challenger Breech Lock Press starter kit. I know its not the most expensive but I believe it will suit my needs. I also purchased their Pace setter dies in .243 Winchester and .45 ACP. I have a copy of Modern Reloading manual but still have some questions.

#1) Case cleaning, when you tumble cases or place them in a sonic cleaner is the purpose to clean only the outside or the inside too?

#2) My die sets came with a Re-sizing/ De- priming die, a bullet seating die and a factory crimping die. The book refers to crimping or not crimping. Do you not need to crimp?

#3) Seating depth, vague references to blank distance off the lands. ex. Barnes recommends .050 off lands how do you go about getting this dimension?

Thank you for any input.

[7mmfreak]

Jul 25, 2017 6:13:52 GMT -5 hornet22savage said:

I have been wanting to get into the reloading game for some time now. I went out and purchased the Lee Challenger Breech Lock Press starter kit. I know its not the most expensive but I believe it will suit my needs. I also purchased their Pace setter dies in .243 Winchester and .45 ACP. I have a copy of Modern Reloading manual but still have some questions.

#1) Case cleaning, when you tumble cases or place them in a sonic cleaner is the purpose to clean only the outside or the inside too?

#2) My die sets came with a Re-sizing/ De- priming die, a bullet seating die and a factory crimping die. The book refers to crimping or not crimping. Do you not need to crimp?

#3) Seating depth, vague references to blank distance off the lands. ex. Barnes recommends .050 off lands how do you go about getting this dimension?

Thank you for any input.

I primarily want the exterior clean as it goes into my sizing die but the primer pocket and interior get cleaned as well. I never crimp if I can help it. With a .243 you should be able to properly keep a grip on bullets with .002-.003" tension. As for seating depth and case sizing you will need comparators like the Hornady Lock'n'Load.

[hornet22savage]

If crimping is not necessary to save my self some money in the future I could just buy a 2 die set and skip the crimping die? I'm looking for load for the following calibers 22 Hornet, 243 Winchester, 7mm Rem Mag, 8mm Mauser 41 Rem Mag and 45 ACP. I assume I need to crimp to handgun cartridges since they are straight wall. Any others need crimping?

[jaycee]

#3) Seating depth, vague references to blank distance off the lands. ex. Barnes recommends .050 off lands how do you go about getting this dimension?

Read more: dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/20026/started?page=1#ixzz4o4MfaMgZ

No need for a comparator when done the following way;
Take a fired [from your gun] case, slightly squeeze the mouth of the case to hold the bullet you will be using and set it out to a long length.
Gently insert the bullet only loaded cartridge into the chamber, this will then push the bullet into the case and at the point the bullet will touch the lands, now very carefully extract the round and when you measure it , you will have the overall length of that round with that particular bullt, from this overall length you will be able to subtract what the manufacturer recommends for overall length of that round as recommended for their bullets.
One note here, Barnes does recommend any where from 50 to 70 thou. of the lands, but this is only for their solid copper bullets, other manufacturers do not require this long distance of the lands, most do well with just 3 to 10 thou. seating of the lands.
Hope this info helps.

[7mmfreak]

As for crimping, use it on the pistol rounds but unless you just cannot get neck tension to hold the rifle bullet I would leave it alone. I can only think of one barrel I had that shot better with crimped ammo. Even with autoloaders (.223 Wylde and .308 Win) as well as my Marlin .30-30 Improved I forgo the crimp.

Jul 27, 2017 16:37:22 GMT -5 jaycee said:

#3) Seating depth, vague references to blank distance off the lands. ex. Barnes recommends .050 off lands how do you go about getting this dimension?

Read more: dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/20026/started?page=1#ixzz4o4MfaMgZ

No need for a comparator when done the following way;
Take a fired [from your gun] case, slightly squeeze the mouth of the case to hold the bullet you will be using and set it out to a long length.
Gently insert the bullet only loaded cartridge into the chamber, this will then push the bullet into the case and at the point the bullet will touch the lands, now very carefully extract the round and when you measure it , you will have the overall length of that round with that particular bullt, from this overall length you will be able to subtract what the manufacturer recommends for overall length of that round as recommended for their bullets.
One note here, Barnes does recommend any where from 50 to 70 thou. of the lands, but this is only for their solid copper bullets, other manufacturers do not require this long distance of the lands, most do well with just 3 to 10 thou. seating of the lands.
Hope this info helps.

That will get you in the ballpark but I promise it is not as accurate as the comparator and modified case. I use to use that method before I heard of the Stoney Point compartors and cases but for at least 10-years I've used the better tool. For starters you may see as much as .020" in overall bullet length due to how copper swages (with or without a plastic tip) and even more so with a soft point. You can also end up with a bullet jammed into the rifling up to .030" that way and you think it is just kissing the lands. Not that jammed is a bad place to be for finding pressure during a load workup but .010" is plenty and if you start at .030" and you come off that to where you think you have a .020" jump you can end up pulling a bullet from a case and filling your action with powder if you only have .002" constriction at the neck. I've seen that put an end to a weekend hunt with a Dakota Model 10 but could be a real spoiler for any other action also.

[billc]

I wouldn't consider not crimping. I have Factory Crimp Dies for about every caliber (35 and counting) I load. You now have answers for both extremes, never and always crimp. The important thing is that the bullet not move during transport, loading, and most importantly under recoil from preceding shots. As you reload you can experiment with taper, roll, or factory crimps. How light or how tight to crimp comes with experience.

[7mmfreak]

As a point of reference, I've never needed to crimp 7mm Rem Mag, .300 Wby Msg,.340 Wby Mag, or .350 Rem Mag. Or anything smaller except for one .223 Wylde with one brand of brass which was really thin and had insufficient tension.

[billc]

Jul 28, 2017 21:34:38 GMT -5 7mmfreak said:

As a point of reference, I've never needed to crimp 7mm Rem Mag, .300 Wby Msg,.340 Wby Mag, or .350 Rem Mag. Or anything smaller except for one .223 Wylde with one brand of brass which was really thin and had insufficient tension.

7mm,
For my info. When you say you don't crimp, are you adjusting all of the taper crimp out of your seating die or just not doing an additional crimp step? When I adjust all of the taper crimp out of my seating die I have collapsed necks during initial set up of bullet seating depth. Looking for tips to save a few pieces of brass. Thanks.
Bill

[7mmfreak]

None of my dies have a crimp function except my two sets of Lee dies for .223 Rem and .30-30 Improved. My .30-30 Improved die will collapse those super thin, sharp shouldered cases if I don't use an expander to just barely bell the case mouth. I don't have a problem with the .223 dies at all. I have factory crimp dies also but have not found an advantage to using them. That doesn't mean they aren't useful.

The rest of my seating dies are Forster and Redding competition seaters.

[billc]

I feel your pain with anything based upon a 30-30 case. I have an expander set for those and if I'm not using boat tails. All of my dies will do some sort of crimp based upon how deep the brass is pushed into the die during seating. Never have used competition seaters. I feel the factory crimp gives more consistency velocity wise. My 257 Roberts AI gives 5 fps ES for 5 shot string with factory crimp. Without factory crimp same 5 shot string is 25 - 30 fps ES. Good shooting to you.
Bill

[7mmfreak]

For some things, like gas guns, I generally just use a Forster FL die with expander ball for a little more neck tension. For bolt guns I use either Redding or Forster FL or Bump dies with bushings. Neck mandrels keep neck tension super consistent for good SD and ES numbers without turning or reaming.

[jaycee]

Jul 27, 2017 17:58:16 GMT -5 7mmfreak said:

As for crimping, use it on the pistol rounds but unless you just cannot get neck tension to hold the rifle bullet I would leave it alone. I can only think of one barrel I had that shot better with crimped ammo. Even with autoloaders (.223 Wylde and .308 Win) as well as my Marlin .30-30 Improved I forgo the crimp.

Jul 27, 2017 16:37:22 GMT -5 jaycee said:

#3) Seating depth, vague references to blank distance off the lands. ex. Barnes recommends .050 off lands how do you go about getting this dimension?

Read more: dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/20026/started?page=1#ixzz4o4MfaMgZ

No need for a comparator when done the following way;
Take a fired [from your gun] case, slightly squeeze the mouth of the case to hold the bullet you will be using and set it out to a long length.
Gently insert the bullet only loaded cartridge into the chamber, this will then push the bullet into the case and at the point the bullet will touch the lands, now very carefully extract the round and when you measure it , you will have the overall length of that round with that particular bullt, from this overall length you will be able to subtract what the manufacturer recommends for overall length of that round as recommended for their bullets.
One note here, Barnes does recommend any where from 50 to 70 thou. of the lands, but this is only for their solid copper bullets, other manufacturers do not require this long distance of the lands, most do well with just 3 to 10 thou. seating of the lands.
Hope this info helps.

That will get you in the ballpark but I promise it is not as accurate as the comparator and modified case. I use to use that method before I heard of the Stoney Point compartors and cases but for at least 10-years I've used the better tool. For starters you may see as much as .020" in overall bullet length due to how copper swages (with or without a plastic tip) and even more so with a soft point. You can also end up with a bullet jammed into the rifling up to .030" that way and you think it is just kissing the lands. Not that jammed is a bad place to be for finding pressure during a load workup but .010" is plenty and if you start at .030" and you come off that to where you think you have a .020" jump you can end up pulling a bullet from a case and filling your action with powder if you only have .002" constriction at the neck. I've seen that put an end to a weekend hunt with a Dakota Model 10 but could be a real spoiler for any other action also.

Have been reloading for 58 years, quite a few of those "commercially " I use both methods, the way I described and use of comparators with success using both.
Sometimes I have to use both methods to verify as some rifles have longer throats than others,and a comparator does not always work in those cases.
But If you know better, carry on .

[7mmfreak]

I'm not saying it won't work and I'm not saying I know better. I'm also an 06 FFL and have loaded a little bit of ammo. I do know that depending on how you do this that with too much tension (PPI)you will get a false read and a bullet that is jammed up to .030". Does a LnL modified case always work? No. I recently used one on a gun chambered with a PT&G "Bore Rider" reamer and based on what it read I should have been able to load to 2.9xx" but the double free-bore with dual leades gave me a false read and that modified case has far less PPI than a case with a "squeezed" neck. That COAL caused a failure of the AR-10 to go into battery and FTF. I had to come off that measurement quite a bit to get a reliably functioning load even though I had awesome accuracy/precision with longer ammo.

Is your method better than nothing? Yes. Have I used it? Yes. Do I think it's the best? Nope. Think about how much linear movement a bolt has with camming and translate that into seating depth with your method. You cannot feel that seating process once that bolt cams closed. Either way you need the comparator for an accurate measurement of your ammo either way because measuring base to tip is not accurate. You can do without the modified case though. You still need the comparator for the BTO (base to ogive) and BTDL (base to datum line)and they are not expensive. I'm into doing things as right as possible since I was born with 2 eyes, 2 thumbs, 8 fingers, and intend to die with all of them.

Regardless of your method, you can use either to find a rough place to start. You can also polish your bullet with steel wool and seat out until you can see an impression from the lead or you may never reach the leade. I had a .300 Wby Mag from the Remington Custom Shop that had enough freebore that you could seat a bullet backwards and the base would not touch the leade. The point I was making though was that if you find your pressure ceiling with the bullet jammed you will never exceed that pressure when you go to a shorter COAL. I also don't recommend seating within .010" because you will find that some bullets have close to that much variation in length to ogive which means some can touch or jam while others jump. Either start your load dev jammed .010" or jumping .010" and then under no circumstances exceed either that length or charge when you find the pressure sign for your gun.

[wilmsmeyer]

Getting started: get a press, trimmer, scale, dies, chamfer/deburring tool, etc and a tumbler and components.

Get 2-3 reloading manuals. Read them and get the basics down. 95% of what you need to do to get started you don't need us. The other 5% will chew up 95% of your time once you get the basics down.

For the casual shooter/hunter you will make good ammo quickly if you follow basic guidelines. The rest is fine tuning for excellence. I know a few things because I've seen a few things. Its a fun hobby.

[hornet22savage]

I was thinking a good place to start would be with what ever is listed. I purchased the Barnes Reloading manual #4, id I start with their minimum load and COAL I will be safe. I have lurked around enough to know some things, a lot of the powders they claim top have given them the best accuracy I have never heard of. Any one have good starting loads for 80 gr. TTSX in a .243 Winchester Savage model 110 1:9.5 twist and 140 gr. Barnes TTSX in a 7mm Rem Mag Weatherby Vanguard

[wilmsmeyer]

Not a 140 gr load but a 120 gr ttsx. 72 gr Re22. COL 3.24. 3400+ fps from my 24" bbl and under and inch all the time at 100 yds and several holy cow groups.

[7mmfreak]

Aug 2, 2017 17:46:10 GMT -5 wilmsmeyer said:

Not a 140 gr load but a 120 gr ttsx. 72 gr Re22. COL 3.24. 3400+ fps from my 24" bbl and under and inch all the time at 100 yds and several holy cow groups.

RE-22 is to 7mm RM what Varget is to .308 Win and .223 Rem. If you rifle won't shoot it and a good bullet you have gun problems. For .243 Win and an 80gn bullet I would say give H4350 a try although it will work with up to a 100gn bullet.

[hornet22savage]

Thanks guys I'll pick some up.

[hornet22savage]

So far none of my litature refers to cleaning the inside of the cases. My Barnes manual mentions use a neck brush to lube and clean but that's it. Would it be OK to spray them out with carb cleaner or break clean?

[hornet22savage]

So far none of my litature refers to cleaning the inside of the cases. My Barnes manual mentions use a neck brush to lube and clean but that's it. Would it be OK to spray them out with carb cleaner or break clean?

[wilmsmeyer]

I simply use a tumbler. The insides never get as shiny as the outside. Probably due to the direct exposure to the hot gases of combustion. As long as all the physical residues are removed I never worry that the inside looks tarnished. Never used one of those sonic cleaners. I have heard that they do a good job. Also I would never spray the insides of a case with anything that could potentially contaminate a future powder charge.

[7mmfreak]

Dry tumbling works fine and I used it for 15 years. I then moved to a sonic cleaner which works well also but requires more work and handles fewer cases at a time based on the size of your cleaner. My tumbler with wet media is the absolute best but I'm not sure it's necessary.

If you clean with any carb cleaner I would make sure and clean cars in a bath of denatured alcohol.

[billc]

I have always thought that cleaning processes were to ensure the outside was clean for reliable feeding and extraction. Any cleaning of the inside is a bonus. Except the primer pocket, that always gets cleaned when I reload. A shot of carb cleaner can't hurt.

[7mmfreak]

Being clean helps ensure reliable function but I've used some grimy ammo before and it'll run even in a gas gun. For me it's about reloading die maintenance and longevity.

[billc]

Good point on die life. I too have run some gunky ammo, some in guns that deserved better. I'm much older now and in theory wiser.

[7mmfreak]

Sometimes it can't be helped. For example, a gas gun with a suppressor will make a mag of ammo an absolutely black, sooty mess.

[hornet22savage]

Ok, now I'm confusing myself. I picked up a copy of Hornady's reloading manual #10. I know from lurking that neck sizing is better for your brass life and can help accuracy some as long as you don't attempt to use ammo in a different gun. I find myself looking at a 4 Die set over my 3 because it includes a neck sizer die. How do you de-prime with out full length resizing?

[wilmsmeyer]

With the neck sizing die the body and shoulder don't get sized or pushed back. The neck still gets squeezed and the expander ball still comes back up and brings the case mouth to spec. Just make sure that you use something to lube the insides of your neck so that the expander ball doesn't have too much resistance when it comes back up thru as it can slighty stretch the already fit-to-form case. I neck sized for my 243 for years and returned to full length sizing a few years ago. Do not see much accuracy difference either way but am not trying to split hairs either. Still very accurate. 7mm can probably shed more light on benefits to each way. I tend to have a lot of reloaded ammo and it kinda sucks that it could only be used in one gun.

[7mmfreak]

Neck sizing only does not absolutely mean that you cannot use that ammo in more than one rifle but it certainly can limit how well ammo fits in more than one rifle. There is a time and place for neck sizing ammo and I use to be believer because I didn't know better. When I was a kid (20yrs ago) neck sizing was the touted method because all the long range shooters were BR or former-BR shooters and that is how they did things. Kenny Jarrett was the big name in LR hunting and he was a former BR guy. It's also super easy to keep a gun really clean when you drive out to a road and climb into your shoot-house over looking a field.

In the real world where guns get dirty and/or you reload for more than one gun, full-length sizing starts to make more sense. If you shoot a lever gun or gas gun it becomes a big deal because you don't have nearly the mechanical advantage with those guns as you do with a bolt gun.My guns get used pretty hard and are often pretty dirty when I get home. Function becomes more important than razor accuracy although full-length sizing gives the function without giving up much in the way of super precision.

In the long run the FL sizing will decrease case life but how much is dependent up on how much you actually size. I tend to bump a bolt gun about .001" and a gas or lever gun only about .002" but if you just follow factory istructions you may bump up to .010" as I found out the other day when I helped a buddy figure out why his reloads were all helter-skelter when all else looked fine. Good quality cases which are minimally sized will still last 8-10 firings on the high end and at least 6 firings on the low end. I find I am more likely to get vertical stringing from work hardened necks than I am case head separation from FL sizing (actually has never happened to me). Annealing pretty well takes care of that issue and cases last longer yet again.

[billc]

H22S,
You stated that you are just stating to reload and 45ACP and 243Win are the calibers. In my opinion, start learning and developing techniques and procedures with the 3 die set. When you are proficient then you could go to neck sizing if your shooting style requires. My experience is that annealing does more for extending brass life. However, I also think 243 brass is cheap enough and available enough that extending brass life would not dictate my reloading method.
Bill