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Post by 7mmfreak on Apr 11, 2016 6:05:45 GMT -5
I think it's doable. When I shot all those 10-shot grips the other day I shot more than 30-rounds per session. You would have to make composite groups of 25 but my average would have been 1.25" . Each group that went over 1" (except one) had 8-shots under an inch and 2 weirdos that edged it out.
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Post by donw28 on Apr 11, 2016 8:41:29 GMT -5
I think it's doable. When I shot all those 10-shot grips the other day I shot more than 30-rounds per session. You would have to make composite groups of 25 but my average would have been 1.25" . Each group that went over 1" (except one) had 8-shots under an inch and 2 weirdos that edged it out. I think it is doable as well but not very often. And 1.25" for 25 shots is exceptional shooting. Certainly better than I can do with any of my 3 SMLs. Don
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Post by bestill on Apr 11, 2016 13:07:32 GMT -5
This my best to date during competition shooting15 shots in 45 minute prone off cross sticks. Blackhorn powder cleaning between every shot. No spotters Start relay shoot15 they all count. 2300 fps. 17 min elevation and 5 min wind correction for10 mph 500 yds group is 10"x10" I prepared to smash this in June.
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Post by jims on Apr 11, 2016 15:11:14 GMT -5
Fine shooting at 500 yards, that is more difficult than 100 yard shooting/groups. That pesky wind thing.
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Post by 7mmfreak on Apr 11, 2016 15:17:32 GMT -5
That's phenomenal.
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Post by 7mmfreak on Apr 11, 2016 15:28:17 GMT -5
Don, I don't think I could shoot 25 on demand like that. Like I said, mine were 10-shots groups broken up into several range sessions. If you averaged my groups I would be close but since every load was different the POI doesn't overlay. All the groups over lay in such a way that there is a hole you can see through all targets when stacked. I'm just saying the precision potential is there is you could endure the course of fire. I was just collecting some smooth vs full form data for a big write up. The rounds out of group don't always correspond to an MV deviation either. I do know that even my match rifles show about 40-50% loss of precision when shooting 10-shot groups vs 5-shot or 3-shots. Who knows if it is mechanical, mental, or a combo but I see it in every rifle I shoot and I'm the weak link every time in my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 21:29:03 GMT -5
Haven't read through the whole post but I've watched it with interest. Something I've always pondered was barrel "heat up". We all know that it really shows with sabot loads however I still believe it still shows with sabotless loads. Richard post allot of 5 shot groups and from what I remember it send like his first three shots generally show great groups and the last 2 one or both tend to jump out of the group. Not always however it seems to be the norm.
If I still lived out on the farm where I could shoot of my back deck I'd try to do a one shot test for 25 days off a cold barrel and see if my theory is correct. Yet I have to drive 30 minutes or better to my shooting range so it would be a difficult test.
I believe with a hot barrel or even a warm barrel we have a reaction to the barrel that changes how it shoots, but that's just my theory.
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Post by 7mmfreak on Apr 12, 2016 6:06:53 GMT -5
Mine didn't get hot like if I are shooting a match gun but a 10-shot group, fired as quickly as you can load and shoot will make an SML warm even in 60°F weather.
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nsb
Forkhorn
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Post by nsb on Apr 12, 2016 8:36:40 GMT -5
I'm a retired quality engineer, quite familiar with statistics. I have three years worth of groups (five shot, not three) compiled on a spread sheet from shooting my stock 50 cal ML2. Some powders and sabot combinations shot pretty consistent over time and some did not. My "best" groups/loads were consistent sub 2moa at 100 yards. From reading on here and elsewhere, I thought something was wrong with my gun. Everyone was reporting way better results Fact is, when you looked at the rifling in the barrel, it looked like it was cut with a chisel.....rough. I had a McGowen barrel put on early last year and to be honest after shooting only a few groups, it shoots no better. To be honest though, it needs a lot of time at the bench to find out what works best. I have only shot two groups sabotless with it so far. It probably has more potential than the original factory barrel but for my needs it simply wasn't worth putting the money into it. I'm beginning to think that a lot of those results I was reading about were not common occurrences for the shooters posting them, but the ones that they remember the best.I think the ones who are getting the really good results on a consistent basis are the people who put a lot of time and effort into achieving those results. Noting wrong with that, but like most endeavors, the time put in becomes a diminishing return towards the end of the process. I'm thinking about just getting back to the basics with something like a stock TC Encore.
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Post by buckstuds on Apr 12, 2016 18:11:49 GMT -5
I think in the other direction. After 50 rounds($100 bucks worth of bullets) my heavy 45 gun shot three different bullets with two powders at an average of .617 at 100 yards. I must be crazy because that is not good enough for me. My new 40 showed up this week and can't wait to shoot it. For a quick reference; this weekend my nephew shot my gun at 100 yards for a three inch group. Within 10 minutes after him, I shot a .750 group with the same every thing. I think all these custom ml will shoot at one inch all day. But the nut behind the trigger will determine the results. Just for giggles, kieth shoots his 344 bombs way better then I can. Then there is carlos, I could learn from him myself. What I am trying to say is if your custom ml shoots 2 inch or 1/2 inch, be happy with it or make yourself better.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2016 20:06:53 GMT -5
I haven't shot near as much with my sml and starting to think that it is a hate/love relationship (accuracy). We all know these guns are crazy accurate. We/me have gotten more focused on group size rather than back straps. This year I'm focused more on back straps and horn. I'll be focused on learning my rifle to 500 yards this year. I have a load that I like and that's part of the fun. Going out, getting a 1/2" group, and learning your rifle. Yet we get stuck on the 1/2" group, I did pretty bad. This year I'm focusing on ringing steel out to 500 yards if not farther. My goal is to hit it 90% or better, of the time. 9.5x12" gong Yes try to eliminate all your flaws and get your group as small as you can buy once you have achieved your goal ring some steel and put some meat in the freezer!! Unless your a competition shooter then focus on groups. ?
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Post by 7mmfreak on Apr 12, 2016 20:30:27 GMT -5
Groups for competition? Depends on your competition. My competition is like hunting since you have to estimate distance and wind then hit. Groups are for guys like Rich with 40# guns, tables, and rests.
I agree that once you have a solid load the majority of your shooting should be done from alts at unknown distance. Have fun with your steel. Nothing sounds better than a hit.
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nsb
Forkhorn
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Post by nsb on Apr 13, 2016 8:44:04 GMT -5
If these guns are as accurate as some think, make me an offer on mine. It's got a new McGowen barrel on it and most of the bells and whistles. I'm not feeling the love here. I just don't see me getting the claimed accuracy of consistent sub moa on a regular basis "with no problems" some are getting. I guess I'm in the camp of those who are getting sub 2moa consistency with five shot groups using some select loads. I probably should have simply left the factory barrel on the gun for what I use it for.....hunting deer two or three days a year. Oh well, on to the next new hobby.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2016 8:48:03 GMT -5
Buckstuds nailed it. Even when all guns are created equal, all men shoot them to a different capability. Where the heck is Carlos?
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Post by 7mmfreak on Apr 13, 2016 11:30:21 GMT -5
Where the heck is Carlos? Probably tapping his foot waiting for you to stop playing Candy Land and mail him a gun.
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Post by rossman40 on Apr 13, 2016 16:14:18 GMT -5
You have to think of it as a "system" or maybe that is just the way the Army molded my thinking. It isn't just the rifle and the load but everything else involved. Your sighting system, your rest, if your shooting from a bench how sturdy is the bench? Then you have to factor in atmospheric conditions. And then you have to add in, IMO, the biggest wildcard, the human element. Like it or not the human is part of the system, even if you use a mack-daddy machine rest the human still has to sight it. Don't get me wrong, there are shooters that can come close to machine rest accuracy, but then there is the majority that can not. At the end of the day all you can say is "me shooting this rifle using this load from that bench with this rest under these conditions I can expect "X" accuracy". Now that may be a big difference from when the shot you take hunting is "me using this rifle and this load leaning against a tree on a hillside in southern Indiana at 20 degrees in a snow storm and I'm soaking wet and panting like a marathon runner from chasing after this buck for a mile". Your accuracy may be just a tad less, by a half mile... I'm not saying hunters should not use a bench, the bench is where you "tweak" the system. Once you do that and have the system (including yourself) as accurate as you want you can then move to other positions and get a feel for your accuracy with confidence.
What is good accuracy? I get asked that all the time. Again you have to look at the overall system but if you can get down to shooting consistent .5 moa groups with a quality bolt action, you belong in my book of Heroes. Not every rifle will do that, not every load/ammo will do that and for sure not every shooter can do that. So like in NSB's case someone gets a .45 SML and right off the bat 100yd group size is 2". You then look at loads and tweak them to where your getting 1.5" @100yds, still a problem because the barrel and load should have the potential of shooting a sabotless .5" group. So where is the problem? If you ruled out the internal ballistics, load or ignition, it could be a human problem, you can let someone else try it, or try to minimize the human effect with a quality rest set-up. So it doesn't seem to be the human effect, what about the sighting system? Not just the scope but also the rings and mounting. If that is OK what about the stock? If not that what about the bench or shooting position? The trick is when you have a problem is to be able to identify it. You could have even gotten a bad barrel from the factory.
I remember mounting a scope for a old guy, Bushnell 4200 in Warne rings and mounts on a Savage 10FP in .308 for a deer hunt in WV. He takes it home and I get a call the next day, gun won't shoot. Of course it is all my fault, he lives about 8-10 miles from me so I go over to his house. His "range" set-up was this gazebo (pretty nice one) in his back yard, his bench was this wore out Colman aluminum camping table (it could lean 6" in any direction with a slight push) and a rolled up (about 10" diameter) rug, then his chair was one of those rockers like you see at Cracker Barrel. I take one look and said you gotta get something a bit more solid then this. He answers back that he shoots his .22s all the time this way. We put up fresh targets and I tell him to show me what it is doing. He puts 3 downrange in 2"+ group so I tell him to let me try. From a standing offhand I put a quick 3 into about 1 1/4". He thinks I got lucky and I tell him that maybe we should try to get him into a different set-up, he goes for that and we move a picnic table over to the railing and he shoots with the rug draped over the railing, rifle on the rug as a front rest with him sitting at the picnic table and he could put his right elbow on the picnic table top. Best set-up for what we had laying around. Anyway he shoots 3 and comes out with maybe a tad less then 1" group. I'm like "see that helped" and his conclusion was that it was not his poor choice of firing position, it was that the barrel was getting broke in.
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Post by mcgowen45 on Apr 13, 2016 16:37:04 GMT -5
Buckstuds nailed it. Even when all guns are created equal, all men shoot them to a different capability. Where the heck is Carlos? I'm here, and like Keith said tapping my foot and waiting for my gun. Plus also doing your work for you. Will post in a new POST.
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Post by jims on Apr 13, 2016 20:29:06 GMT -5
rossman: For some people it is never their fault.
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Post by 7mmfreak on Apr 13, 2016 20:54:49 GMT -5
A quick three into a 1.25" group offhand at what distance? If you say 100yds then you need to go shoot the rifle challenge in the centerfire section because you are going to win like nobody ever won before and I know some guys who are going to be willing pay for training.
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Post by rossman40 on Apr 14, 2016 1:09:38 GMT -5
To be honest the fence the guy hung his targets on was closer to 80yds then 100. I was still a pretty good offhand shooter 15yrs ago, hot dam good 35yrs ago, now that I'm old and limping around I've been known to pull a tough shot off when it counts every now and then. You should try some X-course service rifle, get you off the scope and bipod.
You know that could be a training experience, used to be some clubs that were big into service rifle would hold a Garand Match. Put down a five buck match fee and they provided ammo and if you didn't own a M1 Garand they would loan you one. Usually 100, 200 and sometimes 300 but they would run you thru the positions, kinda mini X-course. Might make the young troops appreciate the modern equipment they get and yet show them some roots.
I got to meet the "uncle" of modern offhand target shooting, Al Freeland, back when I was in HS. Maybe something rubbed off in a wave and a few words. Never knew or realized how much the man contributed to the sport till years later.
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Post by 7mmfreak on Apr 14, 2016 6:27:05 GMT -5
We do some shooting from time to time with the North State club at Camp Butner; last one was Intro to Palma. My local club runs reduced course Service Rifle and National Defense matches. All of the DMM and PRS we shoot is positional. Give the 400 Point Agg a try to see where you are on positional work. I shot it optics and irons.
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Post by rossman40 on Apr 15, 2016 20:00:36 GMT -5
Something like that is good training/practice! You wouldn't have to do it every range session, couple of times a year would be good for most. It is more a test of your form in the different positions then the accuracy of rifle. You figure 4 strings of 10 rounds each for 400 points or you could cut back to 5 rds per string. You can set starting from a standing at port arms then going to firing from standing, kneeling, sitting, and prone. You could even say start at the buzzer and be finished in 60 seconds if you wanted to put some pressure on. It would be doable with a semi or bolt action but perfect for a AR. It would take a while with a SML not to mention expensive. You can do it all from 100yds or different ranges, you could even do it with a .22LR at 50yds if you wanted. You could shoot it on the same target to make it easy to score. When your done you want to look to see if you have 4 distinct groups and the group size of each. You can then figure out your weak spots and work on them till you get down to a single large group. It would be interesting to do the course with different rifles and sights and see what the difference in the score would be.
I remember shooting a early three-gun match back in the 90s and one stage you had to shoot between these two horizontal PVC pipes. The slot you had to shoot thru was high enough that you couldn't go prone and low enough that you couldn't shoot kneeling so you were forced to go sitting. It seemed like a third of the shooters never shot sitting before and the majority of the rest never practiced it. You had 3 poppers at 100yds and then 3 at 25yds. You then had to move to another barrier where you had your shotgun on a table and 4 more steel targets from 5 to 25yds. You started with 10rds in the rifle and 10rds in your holstered pistol and had the option to switch to your shotgun at the second barrier. You could possibly clean the stage just using your rifle, or if you wanted to "game", knock down the 6 targets with the rifle and leave it so you could get up faster to cut a second or two off getting to the second barrier. There were guys that emptied their rifle and pistol and still left targets up at the first barrier.
Your lucky to have Woody's down the road close. I thought the DMM was part of the PRS circuit?
I finally ran across someone that shot down at Rockcastle, is it true the two lovebirds from the AMU put on a shooting show?
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Post by 7mmfreak on Apr 28, 2016 21:10:40 GMT -5
They shot well but almost flunked out because of ruck times on the last day. Based on some pics on AMU Facebook they had the course of fire before the match. Coincidence since the match director's daughter is brand new in AMU? Probably not. Especially since her team was 100pts ahead of the next team then the rest of us are separated by a quarter that amount. Pretty sure it was her first long range match with them. Lots of grumbling by lots of folks over that match this year.
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Post by ourway77 on Apr 29, 2016 3:30:08 GMT -5
Some great shooting at 500 yards Lucky if I can see that far. I use to be pretty good with an M-1 rifle in the service but that seems like 200 years ago. I just bought some new scopes with the Boone and Crocket cross hairs am trying shooting to 300 yards My range is up to 1000 yards in Delaware.
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Post by 7mmfreak on Apr 29, 2016 18:54:26 GMT -5
Your lucky to have Woody's down the road close. I thought the DMM was part of the PRS circuit? DMM is its own thing. It's a team match and only goes to 700m but mirrors the PRS platform. I usually shoot DMM with a .223 Wylde but PRS goes to 1000m+ so I use harder shooting bolt guns.
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Post by rossman40 on Apr 30, 2016 13:01:45 GMT -5
Keith, thanks for "the rest of the story" on the Rockcastle shoot, I'm not a facebook follower of anybody so I miss the intel from that. I just ran into a guy I know that attends a lot of the big shoots (not as a competitor) and he was told the two were engaged. IIRC both of those took a bunch of national titles as juniors which probly got them on the AMU team. Humping a few clicks and then shooting in a natural environment sure isn't like walking up to the line at Camp Perry or Whittington. Of course when your cushy slot at the AMU depends on performance...
The PRS circuit is getting bigger but I feel it's going the way of bass fishing, bull riding, and bowling. It's become more industry driven instead of by a organization. The companies see it more as advertising or PR. A few years down the road you might not be able to get a slot for a major match unless your on a factory sponsored team. When you see the word "contingency" along with fund or money pop up that brings the pros out. I used to attend the Bianchi Cup regularly just to watch and it seemed the number shooters that were not sponsored dwindled every year. We tried to get one of the big name pistol shooters to come to the club for a match, first words out of his mouth "how much contingency money".
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Post by dannoboone on Apr 30, 2016 19:08:52 GMT -5
If these guns are as accurate as some think, make me an offer on mine. It's got a new McGowen barrel on it and most of the bells and whistles. I'm not feeling the love here. I just don't see me getting the claimed accuracy of consistent sub moa on a regular basis "with no problems" some are getting. I guess I'm in the camp of those who are getting sub 2moa consistency with five shot groups using some select loads. I probably should have simply left the factory barrel on the gun for what I use it for.....hunting deer two or three days a year. Oh well, on to the next new hobby. Assuming the new barrel is on a 10MLII action, you could have a problem with the receiver. Have you looked into that? Having a larger bore size than a PacNor or Brux, the McGowen barrel needs to be loaded a bit differently. Do you realize that? I had my son's McGowen conversion shooting MOA in less than 20 shots, which was AFTER reading up about the peculiarities of the larger bored .45's. Therefore, extended trials at the firing range were not needed (even though most of us here do not regard range sessions as being a big chore).
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Post by bryguy on Apr 30, 2016 20:55:35 GMT -5
Honestly I know I am the weakest link in my 'system'. Today I shot my ML, slug gun and 270 for some load development and testing. I also had the 22s along because I knew I was going to take a beating today. Shot 10 rnds of smokeless and 10 20 gauge sabot slugs and probably 50 rounds of 270. After a few rounds of each I would load up the 22 and shoot it to keep the flinch at bay. Even doing that I had to call it quits after a couple of hours. Honestly I got pounded today. And I could tell that later on the day, my trigger work and soggy picture were going to hell. So I packed up and headed home. I'll do some dry fire work this week to get back to good trigger work and a better sight picture. As to the ML accuracy, I think a lot of people have issues shooting them due to that recoil. It doesn't take many rounds from one of these guns to make one realize they are 'thumpers' with HUGE recoil compared to what most are used to.
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Post by jims on May 1, 2016 8:13:03 GMT -5
For testing i shoot off a Lead Sled. There are other similar devices but for those hard kickers or a lot of shooting they reduce flinching.
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Post by bryguy on May 1, 2016 18:12:46 GMT -5
For testing i shoot off a Lead Sled. There are other similar devices but for those hard kickers or a lot of shooting they reduce flinching. While I agree for load testing they are good, I prefer to perform the final shooting without one to see what my error that I induce in a load is.
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