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Post by deertroy1 on Mar 26, 2016 17:08:17 GMT -5
I'm curious as to what you feel is reasonable accuracy shooting sabots. I just went back over my notes and tallied up the accuracy for all loads I've shot since installing my new McGowen barrel. This doesn't include any hand picked loads, just loads I've tried. I also counted everything including fliers, called or not. This also includes trying different primers, powders, bullets messing with breech plugs and bedding. I had a total of fifty groups. All groups were three shots at 100 yards. The average accuracy for the entire fifty groups was:
1.84" for fifty 3 shot groups. Again this is not fifty of my best loads, just the last fifty groups I fired regardless.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2016 18:09:58 GMT -5
That's pretty exceptional!
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Post by tnhunter54 on Mar 26, 2016 18:32:03 GMT -5
That is actually pretty good.
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Post by rambler on Mar 26, 2016 19:11:56 GMT -5
I'd take that shooting in a heart beat.
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Post by jaymiller5 on Mar 26, 2016 19:40:23 GMT -5
I would take that all day long from my smokepole! I haven't hit fifty groups with it yet but have had a few 2.5" 100 yard groups and some under 1/2". For my typical hunting situation and distance of 200 yards and under, I feel really comfortable these SML will do everything I will ever ask of it.
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Post by deertroy1 on Mar 26, 2016 21:22:37 GMT -5
Okay, I think if I picked my best load I could probably average 1.25". For my purposes that will do just fine. Thanks for your input guy's.
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Post by jims on Mar 26, 2016 21:52:46 GMT -5
If you kept all your shots under 200 yards no deer would be safe.
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Post by dannoboone on Mar 27, 2016 4:30:02 GMT -5
Ozark (RIP) would tell you that your average group is .92" POI of POA. In other words, your point of impact will be less than an inch of you point of aim. Pretty good.
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Post by billyboy on Mar 27, 2016 6:56:22 GMT -5
That is pretty amazing considering all the variables. I bet most people with the stock .50 Cal barrel would love to see that accuracy.
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Post by 7mmfreak on Mar 27, 2016 8:20:27 GMT -5
My guns are sabotless but for reference, I shot 3, 10-shot groups the other day and my average was just a bit under your average. For deer hunting inside of 300yds I would be completely comfortable.
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Post by Earnhardt on Mar 27, 2016 8:36:14 GMT -5
Uh...ya...that's pretty awesome for 50 shots man!
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Post by 10ga on Mar 31, 2016 13:43:58 GMT -5
Been heming and hawing about which barrel to get for my new build. You just sold a McGowen. That is really some kind of good overall grouping which most shooters can't get with straight up hand picked loadings. 10
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Post by rossman40 on Mar 31, 2016 21:49:54 GMT -5
It all comes down to data analysis and interpretation (or 40 years ago we just called it statistics). You have 50 3 shot groups, that's a pretty good sampling, that you kept the average group size of. What other data did you record? Did you record the offset of the Mean Point of Impact (MPI)of each group to the Point Of Aim (POA)? Then you could answer the question Danno brought up. Did you measure the height and width of each group? You could then look at vertical and horizontal dispersion averages which should be about the same between loads. Did you record the temp that each group was shot at? You could look to see if the average group was larger or smaller when the temp was above or below average. With enough data points you could come up with all kinds results.
Imagine if every shot you took was recorded and you had data points like, Powder data; brand, flavor, lot# and charge weight. Bullet data; again brand, flavor, weight and a lot#. Primer data; brand, flavor, and lot#. Atmospheric data; temp, humidity, baro pressure, and then add wind speed and direction and then maybe if it was sunny or cloudy. Gun data; barrel/chamber temp, which scope and any adjustments that were made, maybe even the number of shots since last cleaned. Shot data; muzzle velocity and accuracy is one thing but what if you added chamber pressure (Pressure Trace) and the actual BC of that bullet for that shot. Range data; you could throw in like GPS data, what type of shooting style (like bench or prone) was used.
Ton of data but you can crunch the numbers every which way and it's just about bulletproof. I know of guys that do this, maybe not as extreme as all of the above, but when they come up with changing from scope "A" to scope "B" reduced their group size by .076 moa or a different powder lot shrunk their groups by 3%, you can't argue with them, they have the data and math that backs their statements up.
Just using the new Lab Radar you could do 10 shots of one bullet and get an average BC for the bullet but you could also look at the extreme spread. If 9 out of 10 bullets are very close and average .500 and then 1 out of 10 is say 10-15% off you might not notice it at 100 or maybe even 300yds. But you might want to think about that as a choice for 1000yd shooting because your going to have 1 out of 10 that is a flyer.
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Post by deertroy1 on Apr 1, 2016 13:13:16 GMT -5
I have the group width and height, temperature, altitude and all load data. I was more or less wondering what I should expect for a group average with my best load. However, you need a baseline of when to stop. Is it unreasonable to expect 1" three shot groups at 100 yards consistently, that is no groups over 1"...........none. I find a lot of people posting remarkable groups on the net but can they shoot that group again tomorrow or the next day or next month. I can shoot a 3/4" group three times out and then for reasons I can not explain I'll get a 1-3/4" group with the same exact load under about the same conditions. The average I posted above was for every load tested, not my best. Some of those groups the sabots fit extremely loose, some super tight, some days was really windy or cold, etc.
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Post by Richard on Apr 1, 2016 19:30:30 GMT -5
Deertroy1...............You did a very good assessment! Something most shooters do not acknowledge! They tend to pick one or two of their very best groups and crow about how accurate there gun is..........Its called BS. I used to post a lot of groups here, both the good the bad and the ugly while others would just post an occasional good group and they would get praised for how good they shot! The thing is, I shot more different powders, bullets sabots, no sabots, wads, no wads, duplex, singles, triplex and you name it. Do to a "changing of the the guard" I have stopped posting results here.
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Post by dans on Apr 1, 2016 20:00:27 GMT -5
I have owned 10 or 12 smokeless muzzleloaders. The factory stock 50 cal. savage rifles I have kept are the ones that shoot in the 1.5 inch range for 3 shots at 100 yards. Two of my sons and one grandson all shoot factory rifles with factory loads. Each season they get the savages out and shoot two shots at 100 yards to make sure the scopes are still on. We have had no problem with them holding zero from one season to the next. A fair number of deer have been killed with these rifles and we have never lost one. Our shots at deer are taken well within 100 yards and 90% are under 50. We use the smokeless guns because they are easy to maintain, give a higher level of performance, and we can see the effect of the shot when we shoot. I have two Savage rifles, one 45 pacnor barreled rifle, and a 50 cal. NULA. The two savages shoot in the 1.5 inch range, the pacnor 45 in the one inch range and the NULA shoots in the one inch range. Now these rifles shoot like this with their preferred load. I have shot many three inch groups getting to this point. All these rifles are shot with single powder, saboted bullet loads. We don't need anything else.
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Post by 7mmfreak on Apr 1, 2016 20:09:03 GMT -5
Do to a "changing of the the guard" I have stopped posting results here. That's almost exactly what I said on the other board but due to willful ignorance and argumentative attitudes.
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Post by deertroy1 on Apr 2, 2016 14:15:04 GMT -5
I have owned 10 or 12 smokeless muzzleloaders. The factory stock 50 cal. savage rifles I have kept are the ones that shoot in the 1.5 inch range for 3 shots at 100 yards. Two of my sons and one grandson all shoot factory rifles with factory loads. Each season they get the savages out and shoot two shots at 100 yards to make sure the scopes are still on. We have had no problem with them holding zero from one season to the next. A fair number of deer have been killed with these rifles and we have never lost one. Our shots at deer are taken well within 100 yards and 90% are under 50. We use the smokeless guns because they are easy to maintain, give a higher level of performance, and we can see the effect of the shot when we shoot. I have two Savage rifles, one 45 pacnor barreled rifle, and a 50 cal. NULA. The two savages shoot in the 1.5 inch range, the pacnor 45 in the one inch range and the NULA shoots in the one inch range. Now these rifles shoot like this with their preferred load. I have shot many three inch groups getting to this point. All these rifles are shot with single powder, saboted bullet loads. We don't need anything else. This is exactly my position. I just got back from shooting as I got some new 250gr FTX 0.452" bullets to try. Loaded 38, 39 and 40gr of N110. The three groups were 1.77", 0.79" and 0.88" respectively. The average was 1.14" for all three groups. Except for one shot in the 38gr load the average would have been under 1". More importantly all three groups hit in almost the same spot. I'll try 39, 40 and 41 the next time and if they shoot that good again I'm going to put that load in my hip pocket for hunting season and keep messing around with different loads simply because I like it!
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Post by spc136 on Apr 3, 2016 0:10:55 GMT -5
Deertroy is your gun a stock .50 Savage or did you change the barrel to a .45 ?
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Post by donw28 on Apr 3, 2016 2:09:44 GMT -5
I've found the same thing some of you have. Most of the groups posted are cherry picked and not consistent long term groups. I'd be willing to bet some $$ against someone shooting a 25 shot group under 1 inch at 100 yards. All 25 count. No "flyer" crap and "wind got that one." A single bullet outside the 1 inch mark and game is over. I doubt I'd lose much money. On the other hand I'd not take the bet for 2 inches at 100 yards and when you are honest a 25 shot group at 100 yards under 2 inches with a muzzle loader is d**n fine results.
Don
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2016 6:05:31 GMT -5
For accuracy most people show some great groups and whether they are honest or not these guns can perform sub moa. For best results we try to take out factors that cause our guns to shoot poorly. Which is why allot of people have gone sabotless, sabots tend to be a huge accuracy flaw.
Deertroy, if I remember correctly you have a McGowen .50 cal where your shooting sabots. You have shown some great groups and your gun will shoot great groups. However with sabots you can't rely completely on accuracy cause sabots fail.
Once you shoot sabotless you'll understand why allot of groups look to be cherry picked. Not saying some are not however these guns shooting sabotless are crazy accurate.
This is a great post and lots of good info. Good luck.
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Post by deertroy1 on Apr 3, 2016 7:47:15 GMT -5
I didn't mean to imply anyone was cherry picking their results. I just wanted to get a general idea as to what I can expect for accuracy without someone posting a single 1/4" group and saying how wonderfully accurate there gun is. Yes, my gun is a 50 cal. McGowen barreled Savage and I'm shooting sabots. The gun has been pillar bedded. I'm pretty much where I want to be for how I hunt. Yesterday I shot the following groups. If I was to superimpose the groups and then move them all to the center of the paper the results would look like below. I feel this is pretty good for ten rounds considering the powder charge was a grain difference for each load and the gun obviously didn't like the lightest charge. What does all this prove..........not much until I try the best load again a couple more times at least and repeat the results. At the least it's encouraging.
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Post by jims on Apr 3, 2016 7:55:10 GMT -5
Looks good.
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Post by Dave W on Apr 3, 2016 8:17:07 GMT -5
Looks like you are on the right track!
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Post by 7mmfreak on Apr 3, 2016 16:40:40 GMT -5
I've found the same thing some of you have. Most of the groups posted are cherry picked and not consistent long term groups. I'd be willing to bet some $$ against someone shooting a 25 shot group under 1 inch at 100 yards. All 25 count. No "flyer" crap and "wind got that one." A single bullet outside the 1 inch mark and game is over. I doubt I'd lose much money. On the other hand I'd not take the bet for 2 inches at 100 yards and when you are honest a 25 shot group at 100 yards under 2 inches with a muzzle loader is d**n fine results. Don I burned a pound of H322 in the last week doing some testing. All groups were 10-shots and the smallest was 1.03MoA the largest is 1.6MoA. That's from a gun that usually shoots 5-shot groups in the .6MoA range and 3-shot groups in the .4MoA range. If I were a betting man I would guess keeping 25-shots under 2MoA would be a chore.
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Post by mike243 on Apr 4, 2016 16:30:18 GMT -5
No deer is safe out to 200y,If I can keep a scope working,getting ready to send my Nikon back for the last time.Have missed a few chip shots due to scope or bullet failing to expand. I will correct the scope 1 last time. I have no need of a 45 cal but want 1 lol. Savage has my support with any rifle they build. My 243 has killed every thing it has been aimed at. cheap 110 package gun should not shot so good lol
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Post by buckstuds on Apr 4, 2016 16:57:29 GMT -5
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Post by rambler on Apr 4, 2016 17:05:56 GMT -5
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Post by buckstuds on Apr 4, 2016 18:01:58 GMT -5
this is my last 24 shots out of my 45, no cherry picking
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Post by rambler on Apr 4, 2016 18:39:56 GMT -5
No cherry picking needed on those shots. Nice montage.
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