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Post by flatlander on Nov 21, 2015 23:34:23 GMT -5
I shot sabots out of a 45 McGowan for 2 years. Then for no good reason at all I went sabotless. I don't really have any complaints as I've killed several deer with sabotless, but sizing bullets, knurling, and all other involved processes really complicate a relatively simple concept. I've had great accuracy with both, but I was wondering what the true breaking point is for sabots to fail. I understand it will be different in every gun, but I figured you guys would have a general idea. With the powders we have today, I would think it would be doable to keep pressure down and still yield very high speeds. Technology is great, but sometimes simple is the way to go. I'm not looking to shoot bench rest competitions, I just want a reliable, consistent, accurate load that won't leave me hanging in the field. Any ideas?
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Post by lakeplainshunter on Nov 22, 2015 6:41:17 GMT -5
With SS's load, sabots are pretty easy. 10 gr/50 gr IMR SR4759/H4198 with an HSB sabot. 200 gr SST or 195 gr BX your choice. You may still need to knurl for consistency.
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Post by Dave W on Nov 22, 2015 8:39:13 GMT -5
Another vote for SS's load that was mentioned above.
I don't think you can say X=sabot failure, too many variables in play. Bullet, powder, booster type, pressure spike, etc., they all play a role in sabot integrity.
Know what you mean about simplicity, buddy still uses 40gr N110 with a 250 FTX in his stock ML II. Shoots great and kills deer just as dead as anything else. When I mention upgrading or changing, he just looks at me and asks why fix it if it is not broke.
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Post by flatlander on Nov 22, 2015 10:14:17 GMT -5
I'm starting to side with your buddy. It's getting old spending 2 hours prepping a batch of bullets just to go shoot, When a saboted bullet does the same thing basically right out of the box. And say in the rare instance you forget your full formed bullets at home and go on a big hunting trip. Every sporting goods store sells saboted bullets, haven't seen many sell full formed bullets. And if they did I'm pretty dang sure they wouldn't fit. Kind of like shooting some crazy wildcat cartridge versus a .300 win mag. There's pros and cons to each, but I'm starting to think the pros are out weighing the cons with sabots.
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Post by jims on Nov 22, 2015 10:36:57 GMT -5
Flatlander: I tend to agree with you. At the distances I generally shoot the sabotted loads work well and fine. Where the bare bullets shine is in the heat, repeated quicker shooting as on the range in a contest and for higher velocity/longer ranges. For the average hunter sabots are easy IMHO. I never have much problem getting a sabotted load down the bore but have cussed some bare loadings. A little bit like Goldilocks, some too loose, some too tight, some just right but not so easy getting there at times. Overall cheaper for the occasional shooter with sabots, no reducing dies, cleaning of bullets, more extensive testing etc. That all said I do shoot both. It does give one options.
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Nov 22, 2015 13:09:10 GMT -5
I have an EncorePacnor that shoots saboted. Because I love the performance it has with it's pet load. It's an easy 200yd gun. But it isn't fun to shoot in the warmer seasons...I also have a Savage Pacnor shoot saboted....it lives in the safe. I have 2 that I shoot sabotless. The bullet sizing is just part of the process. My Capone gun likes them sized .4485.... Purple gun likes em sized .449..... My sons RemBrux likes them sized .449 and a knurl. All of these sabotless guns will shoot sub1/2 MOA out to 200 yds. Sizing bullets and then cleaning them...weighing charges.......it's all part of the price you pay for performance. Minute of deer is a lot easier to obtain than minute of gopher...and a lot cheaper probably. Myself I like to shoot year round....not as much in the winter months...but I do like to get out some. Either way you go is justifiable to each and everyone. Just have to choose your own path. Drop
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Post by linebaugh on Nov 22, 2015 14:40:23 GMT -5
I agree with the original poster and most of the things that have been said above. I also went away from the ff and smooth because it seemed like I could never get the bullets to come out the same from one time to the next when sizing. I even got the impression that the bullets expanded some after a while just sitting in the box after sizing. I doubt this is possible but I had far more problems running sabotless than I ever did with a sabot. I do totally understand both sides of this but like the original poster I feel sabots are just easier for me.
I think sabots will hold far more pressure than most give them credit for but it takes a few things to make that happen. They need to fit tight, like hard to load tight and they need as much sidewall contact as possible.
I routinely run in the 40,000 plus range on my sabots. My bullet fills the sabot petals from top to bottom with bullet contact and they load pretty darn hard. I also know not to shoot them as fast as possible 10 in a row or to shoot them on hot summer days. That is not a problem for me as I mostly hunt with mine and target practice in the fall before season.
I will be shooting tomorrow barring any surprises and running 40,000+ with about 3,000fps. I will try to get someone to post the results.
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Post by flatlander on Nov 23, 2015 0:12:33 GMT -5
Thanks guys! I have my gun dialed in with 290 barnes at the moment, and season opens next monday. I think I will dial it in with sabots this weekend because it's getting old trying to stand on my ramrod to load a tight bullet in the field. Linebaugh, I totally agree with the swelling theory. After I knurl the bullets, I run them all the way through the barrel while the barrel is fouled. I even go so far as indexing my bullets and barrel. Then I get out in the field to load up and I can't drive the bullet home with a 3 pound hammer. It's frustrating to say the least. I like the energy from the 290, but it really doesn't matter when you can't get it to go down the barrel... a little heavier saboted bullet would be the cats meow I believe. At least in the hunting world.
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Post by lakeplainshunter on Nov 23, 2015 13:43:41 GMT -5
You must have a tight McGowen to have to size the T-EZ. Both of mine require them to be knurled to get a good fit. That may be why yours did well saboted. Shoot the duplex that I mentioned above with the 195 gr BX and you will be very happy with the results.
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Post by flatlander on Nov 23, 2015 13:58:26 GMT -5
I don't have to size the barnes bullets, but just about everything else has to be sized. I like the barnes, but it's just a pain trying to knurl a whole batch the same. I've checked them with a micrometer and they vary drastically in the batches I've checked. They shoot good, but like I said, if you can't get them down the barrel it's pointless. One bullet drops down the next you can't pound down. I just want a little uniformity, and feel I get a lot more consistent fit with sabots.
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Post by yule on Nov 23, 2015 15:35:28 GMT -5
Lots of good thoughts here. Some guys, like me, enjoy doing somethings different. I don't own a 270, but do enjoy my wildcats. I like sabotless because I shoot a lot of paper, at long distance. If gives me confidence to take the 350 shot. The KISS method is always best for the masses. However a number of the guys on this board, have , and will continue taking it to the next level. That is what they enjoy. Good luck during your ML season!
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Post by smokepolehall on Nov 25, 2015 14:17:45 GMT -5
I don't know much on the sml's, really jus stared this yr early durin cold months. I like the sabots at the range i hunt here on my place. You will never get a 80 yd shot here, too much thick woods. I like mine as its easy on my old worn out body, my load would not be good at 100 yds, its low powered but sure did well fer me yesterday.
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Post by sw on Nov 25, 2015 15:43:39 GMT -5
If I bought another barrel, I'd consider the PacNor 50 calMLer barrel that comes in 24 twist or their other 510 barrels in 14,16,or 18 twist for 327MH or 290 TEZ bullets. However, an alternative I'd also consider is fast twist 45 with the 240CEBs. I'd like 1 gun I'd feel comfortable to 300-350 yds. Normally hunt where 200 yds would be max. Once I started hunting where I can get the 200-300 yd shots, I stopped seeing the larger deer. Now that I'm back in the thicker woods, I'm back to killing larger deer.
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Post by rangeball on Nov 25, 2015 16:34:05 GMT -5
an alternative I'd also consider is fast twist 45 with the 240CEBs. It'd have to be a .40, they won't shoot saboted. Words of wisdom.
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Post by sw on Nov 26, 2015 13:15:31 GMT -5
I'll try some of those CEBs in my 40 if 16" twist will stabilize.
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Post by sw on Nov 26, 2015 20:10:13 GMT -5
What are saboted options other than 195Bs, 200SSTs/XTPs (and lighter XTPs)?
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Post by sw on Nov 26, 2015 20:12:03 GMT -5
I've shot 200SSTs to over 2900'/sec w/o HLB sabot failure using wool wads. Think others have gone over 3,000'/sec. Think I have but can't say for sure.
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Post by sw on Nov 26, 2015 20:13:57 GMT -5
Concerning sabots and cooling. With loads up to 10/50, I never have trouble the second shot regardless of how quick.
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Post by rangeball on Nov 26, 2015 20:40:34 GMT -5
What are saboted options other than 195Bs, 200SSTs/XTPs (and lighter XTPs)? Barnes makes some lighter .40s. Their bc is low but you can really wing them. The 1:16 will stabilize the CEBS. Talk to guy, carlos and Steve for loads. Maybe dw? You need to anneal them.
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Post by rangeball on Nov 26, 2015 20:41:23 GMT -5
Also Tim's cage fighter cast bullet.
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Post by esshup on Nov 27, 2015 20:42:17 GMT -5
I guess it depends on what the ambient temps are, how hot the barrel is and how far you are shooting.
Typically once I get a gun dialed in, I don't mess with it much. My .45 cal PacNor barreled Savage is shooting great (to me). I know Richard won't approve of the amount of bullets fired to get a group size, but this is a hunting gun and I didn't have a lot of time before it got dark. Plus it's all the same components that I've used for the past 3 years - same lot numbers.
Shooting the Blue Harvestor sabot, 195g Barnes bullet, 70.0 grains of H-4198, I'm seeing a MV in the 2850 fps range. 100 yd group before season was .2" tall x .3" wide c-c, 300 yd group was around 1.5" tall by 2" wide c-c. Ambient temps were in the low 50's, I let the barrel cool for about 10 min between shots.
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Post by jims on Nov 27, 2015 21:04:00 GMT -5
That group will kill a lot of deer.
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Post by esshup on Nov 28, 2015 17:46:00 GMT -5
That group will kill a lot of deer. Here in Indiana we can use some CF rifles, but they are limited to a bullet dia of larger than .375" and a maximum brass length of 1.8". Or basically any CF pistol larger than .243" bullet dia, no max on brass length, or a shotgun with slugs. That Savage is my go-to gun.
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Post by mrbuck on Nov 28, 2015 17:58:28 GMT -5
esshup... That is super shooting ! I like the fact that you mention using all the same lot numbers . That kind of detail helps tighten up groups . I'm holding at 60.0 grains of H4198 and .500" to .750" groups . Maybe I will step up the powder charges and see what happens . Chris
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Post by esshup on Nov 29, 2015 17:47:32 GMT -5
Chris, for some reason my gun didn't show groups like that with the lower powder charges. IIRC I ran it to 72.0 grains without any sabot issues, but the groups started getting larger at 70.5 grains.
I couldn't get better than a 4" group at 100 yds with IMR-4198 powder. Just switching to H-4198 did the trick.
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Post by mrbuck on Nov 29, 2015 19:11:00 GMT -5
esshup... Thanks for your info . Again , great shooting ! Chris
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