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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2015 15:29:48 GMT -5
Linebauh got his new mold in and finished these up yesterday! They weigh in around 243 and they are .40 cal meant for sabots. I'll let him chime in on the test of the details.
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Post by edge on Nov 16, 2015 15:46:55 GMT -5
Hard cast with soft nose?
Looks very interesting, edge.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2015 16:13:51 GMT -5
Hard cast with soft nose? Looks very interesting, edge. He has some kind of mixed lead that can hold up to high velocities the smokeless pushes out.
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Post by rangeball on Nov 16, 2015 16:14:19 GMT -5
Those look great. If they shoot like his prototypes, it will definitely be very interesting indeed. The BC, fps and performance potential is exciting.
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Post by Jon on Nov 16, 2015 17:44:39 GMT -5
Watching with interest
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Post by linebaugh on Nov 16, 2015 18:57:25 GMT -5
First and foremost thank you for posting RiverRat as I don't do the pic thing. I realize many of you don't run sabots but I see many that still do so I hope I can help those interested.
I will be shooting this week but do not have enough tips to do BC work. It will be predominately looking at accuracy which is most important.
If things work and anybody on here is interested I can give you all the details to get either a 240ish grain .40 or a 300ish gr .45 set up for the tips including alloy that will work. I can provide a lot of info if you want to try your hand but my machinist does the mold work and has the program set for this ogive including the built in radius, very important (I think). I guess what I am saying is I will give you a road map and my connections for this particular bullet config.
FYI, With my old bullet a few guns shot it well with a load that produces about 42,000psi (thanks to TGinPA) in a harvester blue. I only mention this to show the true potential of the sabot. I will be going higher than this now to prove or disprove what pressure sabots fail at and when my alloy stops holding up. I realize this is not true to warm barrels and also that many of you prefer to ff or smooth jackets and that my plan is not for the masses.
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Post by smokelessindian84 on Nov 16, 2015 19:06:43 GMT -5
Good looking bullets. We are patiently awaiting your results.
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Post by Richard on Nov 16, 2015 19:58:38 GMT -5
Good luck with the new design! Richard
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Post by 7mmfreak on Nov 16, 2015 20:54:59 GMT -5
Those could be cool if paper patched too is you could size them down
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Post by kennacl55 on Nov 16, 2015 21:31:54 GMT -5
Please keep us posted with results, very interesting bullet.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Nov 16, 2015 23:10:08 GMT -5
How much do they weigh without the tip?
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Post by linebaugh on Nov 19, 2015 14:39:38 GMT -5
I did some shooting today in the 20-30mph winds and so far it looks superb. Only shot 2 groups but I think I proved a few things, to myself anyway.
The first 4 shot group was about 1.5-1.75" but considering the wind that was actually pretty good. I was having a hard time even holding the gun within the 1" target center. That group was shot with 90gr of IMR3031, the 243gr Cagefighter bullet and a smooth blue harvester with a 5 minute cool between shots. That load clocks 2800fps
The second group was to satisfy the idea I had that sabots will hold up to much, much more than most people give them credit for. Three shot group at about 1.5-1.75" again in the hurricane winds. The load was 102gr of IMR3031, 243gr Cagefighter bullet and smooth blue with a five minute cool. That load clocked 3033fps.
The gun is a 23" pac-nor on a Howa 1500 action with MLRP ignition.
I am ordering more tips but no idea when they will arrive. I will try to shoot groups again next week under better conditions and a quick shot or two for BC calculations.
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Post by linebaugh on Nov 19, 2015 14:49:57 GMT -5
To answer some earlier comments.
Tips are aluminum.
Weight without tip is probably in the 240 range as I don't think the tips weigh much at all.
The paper patch idea has come up a by a few others, I don't know much about it but I am told you can push them pretty hard with a simple paper patch.
The alloy is 2.5/2.5/95 tin/antimony/lead with no aresnic so they will likely not harden when water dropped. I do water drop them just the same as it is the easiest and it is the way I have always done things.
The tips are .25 each which is a bit pricey BUT the total cost of each bullet is probably about .35each.
The last Cagefighter prototype ran a BC of .325 in my Apex under my local conditions. I fully expect near the same sults with this one.
Hope that helps someone.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2015 14:57:51 GMT -5
So are we talking about Rhonda or Holly? Lol jk
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Post by edge on Nov 19, 2015 15:02:06 GMT -5
That should not be too hot using102 grains of 3031.
QL estimate is mid 30 kpsi and 3000 fps so you are right in the ballpark, and Powley suggests 3031 for that load too and 3062 fps.
edge.
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Post by rangeball on Nov 19, 2015 15:07:57 GMT -5
Outstanding.
What size flash hole are you shooting? I would have expected problems lighting up with that slow of a powder and that light of a bullet. How long is the flame path?
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Post by linebaugh on Nov 19, 2015 16:13:41 GMT -5
Edge you literally just made my day. Thank you, thank you, thank you! If you don't mind where would I need to be to get to 40,000psi and what would that velocity be?
Also what do you show for 69gr of H4198 with that bullet? TGinPA came up with 42,000 when he tested it.
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Post by linebaugh on Nov 19, 2015 16:21:33 GMT -5
My flash hole is a .250 L x .040 tungsten. Cracked and I don't care and wont change it till it falls out in pieces.
My plug has a .700 length from the face of primer to the face of the powder. Heavily recessed and holds about 20gr of 4198.
My system is as near 100% seal as I think you can get. I have ignited retumbo with it in the past, never had a misfire and on the first time around I shot about 120 rounds before cleaning. The plug was cleaner than 10rnds of 4198 in a savage 209 plug.
And 3 does just walked under my stand. Gotta love technology.
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Post by rangeball on Nov 19, 2015 16:52:15 GMT -5
Nice, and thanks I don't get any bars in my preferred stand Have to be up on top of the ridges. When I sit those stands it adds a whole new dimension. Can't wait for the terminal performance pics
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Post by edge on Nov 19, 2015 19:56:46 GMT -5
SNIP Also what do you show for 69gr of H4198 with that bullet? TGinPA came up with 42,000 when he tested it. It depends on your velocity to some extent! QL with zero initiation comes in around 44kpsi @ 2750 fps Powley picks I4198 as the powder ( Powley only uses IMR ) and predicts 2775 fps. edge.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Nov 20, 2015 13:07:45 GMT -5
That is pretty much what i have been looking for in my fast twist Knight 45. They would make a nice cheap range/fun bullet even without a tip.
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Post by AJ on Nov 22, 2015 9:23:33 GMT -5
Very nice looking bullet. What type of terminal performance ae you expecting? Have you shot any gel or water jugs?
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Post by linebaugh on Nov 22, 2015 10:43:14 GMT -5
Hi AJ,
I have shot a few deer with the previous version and only recovered one bullet. In the broadside does I had shot I was seeing excellent damage internally. I was using 2 different alloys last year with one being harder. I was also only pushing about 2550fps due to a short bbl length and the powder I chose. With the harder alloy I ended up shooting a big bodied Iowa buck Texas heart style. That bullet went stem to stern and was recovered under the skin just below the neck patch. The entire nose was missing and the left over portion of the shank would have been in the 100grain range. (Just a guess)
The bullet is monolithic so the only seperation will be the tip and as the bullet smears and chunks are pulled off. I have the tips set up with about .100 of an inch free space under the stem to promote expansion. This may not be necessary. The bullet caster is 100% in control of the alloy so you can make them as hard as you like, to a point, to match your velocity requirements. Hardness is also necessary to overcome pressure and bullet obturation in the sabot. This part I am still playing with but I can tell you a couple of ideas on it.
I found an article on Cast Boolits one time that stated that to maintain pilability and reduce or eliminte brittleness you need to keep your tin and antimony ratios equal. In addition forgo any arsenic (the part that lets a bullet be hardenable by heat and quench) as this will make bullets more prone to shatter vs expand or smear which we are looking for. From what I see this is a true statement. I made a big batch of 2.5/2.5/95 tin/antimony/lead bullets but I already think I need to go up to 5/5/90 due to the new found velocity I will be pushing.
I do not do water testing anymore on any bullets. A bullet manufacturer in Colorado clued me in on an idea I believe to be correct. That is if you want to see how tough a bullet is shoot water. It was his thought, and now mine as well, that water was one of the toughest tests for any bullet bar none... To the point I think it is likely worthless as a test medium. My opinion and each is entitled to his/her own but in the past I have killed a ton of water and typically it turns a bullet to frag. The same bullet on live game usually has nowhere near this result.
I don't own gel test medium but if you do and want to test some bullets I will send you some when I get my next batch of tips in. I think gel is prolly a good test medium but I unfortunately don't wish to spend my money or time on it.
Hope that helps. Sorry for the windyness.
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Post by AJ on Nov 22, 2015 11:49:08 GMT -5
Thank you for the info. Not long winded at all, just detailed information. Your bullets sound like an alloy version of the Dead Center from Cecil Epp. I take it you are shooting saboted, correct? Do you expect the 5/5/90 would stand up to naked bullets in the rifling? How hard would that blend be to load into the rifling? Sorry for so many questions, it has been forever since I played with cast bullets.
I totally understand on the water testing. Watching Mythbusters shooting CF guns up to .50 BMG into a swimming pool shows how tough water is. I guess the holy grail would be a blend that is: 1. Tough enough for the velocity without melting on the way to the target 2. Pliable enough for expansion on antelope game 3. Tough enough to get adequate penetration on an elk
I do not shoot gel, but thanks for the offer.
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Post by linebaugh on Nov 22, 2015 12:21:14 GMT -5
AJ,
You could cast these out of hard alloy with aresnic (add hard lead shot or buy the alloy that way) and heat treat plus add a gas check and prolly get into the 2,000 range. Wheel weights and a bit of extra tin will get you that hard as well. For that you would need the gas check and the lube groves back in the bullet with lube. I have a 50 cal I run this way but have not done much with it.
Here is an idea I know nothing about but spoke with another member here with a cpl days ago. I have been told by a few sources now that you can paper patch these bullets and run them to high power velocity. I know nothing of this but it would certainly have some advantges if a guy knew how to paper patch. By the way with paper patch you can run soft alloys and I think that they typically use 1/20 tin/lead mix. I assume but don't know for sure that you could paper patch harder alloys as long as you could bump them up similar to smooth form jacketed bullets do when fired.
Yes these are meant for sabots. Yes they are similar to Cecils bullets except the boat tail is counter productive for accuracy as they are applied to his bullet and his bullets are swaged soft lead... Perhaps pure lead or lead with a wee of tin? They obturate badly when hit with any real pressure. It smashes the boat tail and keys into the sabot making an odd looking squarish bullet even with heavy charges of black powder. They are also so incredibly over rated on BC I can only think that he either shot them in a vacuum or there is a range on Mt. Everest.
One other thing you brought up I will address. This tip will fit .400 bullets through about .458 but beyond that the bullet weight will be too much for most. I would guess a .50 cal would need to be in the 350gr range.
In 458 configuration I think you will want a 300gr bullet. 275 may work but I have tried neither. You will also likely lose a bit of that precious BC were all after.
Hope it helps. If you want to chat pm me and I will be glad to give you my number. Heck the last couple people I spoke with helped me as much as I helped them so you never know.
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Post by linebaugh on Nov 22, 2015 12:22:44 GMT -5
P.S.
This 243gr .400 cal will have a higher S.D. (sectional density) than the .458 versions. This is important for penetration on bigger critters.
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Nov 22, 2015 13:21:42 GMT -5
My flash hole is a .250 L x .040 tungsten. Cracked and I don't care and wont change it till it falls out in pieces. My plug has a .700 length from the face of primer to the face of the powder. Heavily recessed and holds about 20gr of 4198. My system is as near 100% seal as I think you can get. I have ignited retumbo with it in the past, never had a misfire and on the first time around I shot about 120 rounds before cleaning. The plug was cleaner than 10rnds of 4198 in a savage 209 plug. And 3 does just walked under my stand. Gotta love technology. Be careful about that cracked bushing. I had the same idea..... And then it cracked again in another place and so did the lock ring....! It came out in 3 pieces.....launch a piece of that tungsten bushing down your barrel and you may be sorry of the damage it can do.. I had several people say ."Ah he'll it's already cracked ...can't go anywhere just shoot it" I wouldn't want to see a possibly trashed barrel over a bushing Good luck Drop
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Post by linebaugh on Nov 23, 2015 17:57:36 GMT -5
UPDATE:
So far the Cagefighter bullet has exceeded all my expectations and once again I have found 3031 powder to be superior. I do not have pictures but hope RiverRat will post some, if not you guys are out of luck.
Okay today I had some time to shoot but not as much as I would have liked. Had a day that was just bad from the start but luckily it ended well.
I shot one group with 100gr of 3031 powder and my 243gr bullet in the blue harvester. That group had 2 basically touching but launched the third shot 1.5" high left. Not 100% aure why but to error on the side of common sense I backed the load down. That load shot 3,000fps almost on the money.
The second group was shot with 95gr of IMR3031 and my 243gr Cagefighter bullet and blue Harvester. 3 shots into about .5 or less at 100 yards. That load runs nearly 2900fps.
After adjusting my scope up and dialing in 1.5 moa of drop I shot again with the 95gr load of IMR3031 and the 243gr Cagefighter with blue Harvester. The group was 4" and was also about 1.5-2" higher than I thought it would be given the dial up I used.
I was not able to shoot 500+ yards today as I had planned but I will this week as I have more time. I'm nearly out of bullets and need to keep a few for hunting in case my next batch of tips doesn't come in time.
Two notes of importance.
The BC so far calculates out to approximately .365... I will confirm this at 500+ when time allows.
The pressure of this load is right around 40,000 psi as calculated by two independent quickload calcs and as evident by my my primer flatening.
Hope that this has some interest to the board. If not that is fine as well. I will post one more time on this bullet and combo when I shoot 500+ and at that point I will likely be leaving the forum behind. I have finally after 6 years achieved success and I don't plan to change things now.
Anybody that wants the info is welcome to it or welcome to call. I will post the roadmap of how to get set up on here before I leave. Just send me a PM and I will gladly give my contact info.
Any questions will be answered.
Thanks
Tim
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2015 18:55:34 GMT -5
I believe this is 300 yards
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Post by rangeball on Nov 24, 2015 14:33:21 GMT -5
Really nice.
Please keep us updated on the terminal performance results. Wish they were legal in my state.
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