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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2015 21:33:37 GMT -5
I make motion for "lead sleds". Or at least a rear bag. Shooting a 335 APB @ 3100 is tough on the shoulder! Or how about Kash's Swing Lock slinging a 444 grain bullet @ 2800?.....mommy... How many shots in a weekend? Now PLEASE don't take this wrong, but you may have to tune them down. But to my knowledge, sleds or rear bags won't be allowed. It will most likely be determined by shooter skill. I sent 46 rounds shooting 180grs from the Ultimate and am old. Its doable........ No offense taken! Rules are rules...but after shooting tonight at 500, I REALLY want to shoot off of a sled.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 6:28:24 GMT -5
Sounds like it could be a fun time, it'd be interesting to shoot the 40's beyond 200 since we can't do it here. Keep us posted if this all comes together.
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Post by 7mmfreak on Aug 2, 2015 6:44:24 GMT -5
Guys.............. I wouldn't even consider asking about prizes or anything, which there probably wouldn't be. They......... MAY......... furnish a couple medals or a plaque, but PLEASE REMEMBER............. This is an exceptional offer from those possibly making it happen at the NMLRA home grounds at Friendship, IN. If it did happen, plan on being the first ever to compete with smokeless muzzleloaders at Friendship. THIS would be the chance that many of you have been waiting for. Embrace it, sign up and attend. All the custom builders would get the chance to show their work and quality.I can assure you, shooting will either be X sticks or bench (bring your own portable), and ONLY the front of the rifle can be supported, by either bags or rests. NOTHING but the shoulder in the rear. You'd be shooting under NMLRA rules.
I 'm only speculating, but the cost would probably be the price of the targets, similar to the in-line May match, $20.00 Those Fisk boys can shoot by the way........... You have been to exactly one of these matches, right? I would ask for the match to be what I wanted it to be. In my experience, as a competitive shooter and range officer, match directors listen because that is how they ensure registration at follow on events.
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Post by rossman40 on Aug 2, 2015 8:50:26 GMT -5
For me, I would like to see 2 classes. A hunter or light class and then a heavy or unlimited class.
As far as prizes I like the IDPA set-up. Trophies/plaques for the winners and then any donated prizes raffled.
I have to agree with Encore, for the NMLRA to open the range for a SML shoot, this is something I would never expect to happen with my dealings in the past with the "buckskin boys" (the die hard traditional ML guys). This is a nice facility!
Then there is the work of coordination and promotion. Maybe some industry support from companies like Pacnor, McGowen, PT&G, Boyds just to name a few
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Post by edge on Aug 2, 2015 9:14:02 GMT -5
When you say no rear support except the shoulder, does that include your fist on the bench?
edge.
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Post by Jon on Aug 2, 2015 9:24:01 GMT -5
edge good question? I know nothing about the rules so I ask?
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Post by rambler on Aug 2, 2015 9:40:40 GMT -5
When you say no rear support except the shoulder, does that include your fist on the bench? edge. 2380–POSITION OF THE RIFLE BUTT–In all positions, the butt of the rifle must be held against the front of the shoulder on the outside of the shooting coat or shirt, and must not touch the ground. I didn't read it all to see if any other bullet points covered the question above. nmlra.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/NMLRA-Rules-Regulations-2015-website.pdf
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Post by edge on Aug 2, 2015 10:21:54 GMT -5
They certainly have separate rules for the different classes so using front and rear in a SML class might actually be a differentiation from traditional and may assuage the use of smokeless since the rules are different. If SML were to break a record I think that would be the last shoot there, but if the rules were different then no record was actually broken I can't see a lead sled being allowed unless you allow all manners of machine rests not used for hunting. edge.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 10:40:21 GMT -5
No rear rest allowed, I'd be happy and probably lucky to hit paper at 200 and beyond. I'd likely be more competitive at being the best cheerleader in the crowd. IDK, never tried shooting like that, be fun to attempt it.
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Post by squeeze on Aug 2, 2015 11:02:18 GMT -5
A lot of the guys are very unfamiliar with the traditionalists, and their viewpoint on inlines, much less smokeless guns. Their online forums wont even allow mention of anything inline, or sabot. They hold "rendezvous" all over the country, reenact civil war and era battles, set up camp to look period correct and critique each other on authenticity. modern chairs, cookware, tents..etc etc are not even allowed in the main camp. they closely examine every nuance of wardrobe and accouterments of each other, right down to the thread count of their tents, or how a button is sewn on their shirt. They have held Friendship indiana as their "mecca" and its like the sturgis, or daytona, or even the superbowl of events for them. For them to allow inline matches, much less smokeless at their most holy of landmarks in this country, Is a HUGE leap for most that it seems many of us are unfamiliar with. If this IS allowed, what we do, and how we do it will be highly scrutinized, both openly and in hushed tone. These guys take their Gibbs and Whitworth style rifles and compete, under their rules, to 1000 yards, and everything in between. We have to walk softly, so to speak, and really watch how we conduct every aspect, of this rare and huge opportunity, in order to let this seed grow. Friendship is a world class venue, and there is a bit of a reason why so many of us havent even heard of it
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Post by rossman40 on Aug 2, 2015 11:59:12 GMT -5
I have to agree with Edge, if we go in with their rules and bust their records, that might give them a excuse not to extend the invite again.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 12:01:08 GMT -5
Just a front rest is plenty sufficient to 500yds for me. When kash and I shoot at youngs I used this out to 800yds and turned in some just fine shooting for my skill set. When you're short it helps to be able to turn the bag on any side to adjust for various bench heights. I took my heavy rest but couldn't get enough skirt under me to be tall enough to use it.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Aug 2, 2015 12:16:45 GMT -5
The current Inline match has some custom built smokers too. A few are probably even smokeless capable but they are using BH209. Several Inline match competitors are shooting the same bullets sabotless that are being shot here with smokeless.
Assuming this pans out, i think a rule set similar to the current Inline match rules is just fine. If the custom inline smokers get spanked with the same rules, so be it. A benchrest type event would be fun also. IIRC the current ML slug gun events use a rear rest but im not totally sure.
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Post by rambler on Aug 2, 2015 12:19:41 GMT -5
A lot of the guys are very unfamiliar with the traditionalists, and their viewpoint on inlines, much less smokeless guns. Their online forums wont even allow mention of anything inline, or sabot. They hold "rendezvous" all over the country, reenact civil war and era battles, set up camp to look period correct and critique each other on authenticity. modern chairs, cookware, tents..etc etc are not even allowed in the main camp. they closely examine every nuance of wardrobe and accouterments of each other, right down to the thread count of their tents, or how a button is sewn on their shirt. They have held Friendship indiana as their "mecca" and its like the sturgis, or daytona, or even the superbowl of events for them. For them to allow inline matches, much less smokeless at their most holy of landmarks in this country, Is a HUGE leap for most that it seems many of us are unfamiliar with. If this IS allowed, what we do, and how we do it will be highly scrutinized, both openly and in hushed tone. These guys take their Gibbs and Whitworth style rifles and compete, under their rules, to 1000 yards, and everything in between. We have to walk softly, so to speak, and really watch how we conduct every aspect, of this rare and huge opportunity, in order to let this seed grow. Friendship is a world class venue, and there is a bit of a reason why so many of us havent even heard of it This "mecca" you refer to sounds as rigid and dogmatic as some mid eastern countries.
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Post by squeeze on Aug 2, 2015 12:53:01 GMT -5
Its been there since it first started as a private farm in the mid '30s, and been going on steady ever since. 1000 yard range, and competitions every year.
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Post by bestill on Aug 2, 2015 13:32:19 GMT -5
Alot of great conversation . If this sml shoot would come to happen all rules pertaining to safety and range usage would be as nmlra requires. Remember this will be a match shot as guest at nmlra range. So records and match rules would not be tied to any existing match. Sml match would be the first so shooting style and match layout will be decided as things proceed. Im impressed with confidence if we shoot same match as inlines that yall will break existing records. One fella shot 7 matches 52 shots and scored 257 and 9x out of 257 and 15x with cross sticks in 2 matches and benchrest with no rr rest in 5 matches..
One thing for sure this sml will be a paper match100 to 500 yds at 100 yd increments.
I will keep all posted as talk with nmlra proceed..
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Post by edge on Aug 2, 2015 13:47:40 GMT -5
SNIP. Im impressed with confidence if we shoot same match as inlines that yall will break existing records. SNIP. That certainly was not my assumption, but my fear! If the new kid on the block comes in and using new technology breaks a longstanding record then their hoots and howls will preclude any continued invitation. IMO, rules changes specific to SML would be a good thing from any competition. If this became commonplace then they could come and shoot our rules in competition but their rules do not allow SML so we are excluded and therefore do not cause any problems...IMO. edge.
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Post by jims on Aug 2, 2015 19:21:25 GMT -5
I think we SMLs would like to see rules that fit our type shooting but if it is their playground they can set any rules they want and we can either choose to attend or not. Hopefully we give them a chance, I have been to their site and it is quite impressive. Just hope some of our group get a chance there.
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Post by 10ga on Aug 2, 2015 22:14:11 GMT -5
This "mecca" you refer to sounds as rigid and dogmatic as some mid eastern countries. I have accumulated demerits and been banned from some "traditional" ML sites/forums just for questioning their mods on why SML, inlines, 209 primers, scopes, jacketed bullets, sabots etc... are forbidden to be discussed or mentioned unless you are bashing them ... If they are forbidden then even bashing and bad mouthing should draw demerits and "time out" same as advocacy. Those "stitch counters" have no sense of humor. OH yeah, I did my share of traditional and buckskinning and started shooting ML in 1962. Then Tony Knight and Doc White came out with better designed and quality guns .... We all know how inline ML and SML is even moving ahead now. Personally I see formal shooting as falling into the trap of competition rules limiting where the technology will go. Look how long before they allowed inlines. Now SML??? I be thinking they want to control and limit what is happening and moving ahead with our beloved addiction. SML has gotten to where it is now without the limits of formal NMLRA recognition. They get in a snit over how many stitches to the inch your stuff has, how are they going to deal with something like ignition systems? Am I just being a pessimistic old guy, no! I want SML to keep moving and getting better and I don't see the proposed matches helping the freedom and opportunity now out there. Next thing mfgers such as Big Green, CVA, etc... will have teams and be trying to influence rules and outcomes for their commercial benefit. I don't think that will help at all. Well enough rant. To each their own. JMHO, 10 ga
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Post by bestill on Aug 3, 2015 6:07:12 GMT -5
Nmlra is not intending in any way recognize or limit sml future. This match if happens will simply be shot as a guest match on a weekend not during nationals so basically they would let sml use there range. Will there be a traditionalist not like this probably so. Manufactures have sent teams to inline matches and guess what it has caused them to move forward in gun design to keep pace with competitive guns that compete.
If we approach these talks with rite attitude and professional it could be a great thing. But if we live in the past experiences that where it will stay.
Thanks
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Post by GMB54-120 on Aug 3, 2015 8:33:31 GMT -5
IIRC in the old Manufacturers Match, Savage attended at least once. They used a sub. BlackMag if i remember correctly. Both Knight and White attended many times and for the most part dominated those matches. White developed the 38cal ML in response to this match and set match records. Knight used mostly 45cal from 1-20 to 1-18 for that match and will soon be offering the 45cal 1-18 again.
I see this as a fantastic opportunity.
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Post by rio on Aug 3, 2015 9:38:37 GMT -5
Absolutely thrilled to see this possible opportunity pop up. I shoot inline comp there and it rocks. The organizers Bestil include are really good at what they do and there won't be any BS. As far as the lead sleds and all go,,,, I say come on down with those big guns, shoot the inline rules and show us hicks how good you are... I dont shoot SML YET, but I and many others in the association support this. They ain't making much of anything off the entry, if anything. What they do is provide a facility and oppritunity for the furtherance of muzzleloading shooting, competition and education. changes in the last few years brought on specifically by the fellas involved in organizing these events are changing opinions down here in a good way for those of us who are not traditionalists. As far as records,,, come on down and break them it might not be as easy as you think. Some of our country folk can shoot!
Hope to see some of you in the fall.
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Post by hunter on Aug 3, 2015 18:44:28 GMT -5
I can see where the no rear bag gives the better shooters an edge and would let a better shooter with a 1/2 moa rifle compete with a lesser skilled shooter with an 1/4 moa rifle. I have not shot this way but I know my first few groups, or maybe several groups, will really suffer shooting with out a rear bag. If I can make the shoot, I would use any style they request and be happy. May not shoot very well but still be happy to be there. I know with off hand shooting I have seen some shooters than make me look bad with me shooting with a rest. I think it would be a great time.
Would this be a one day or 2 day shoot
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Post by bestill on Aug 3, 2015 21:18:52 GMT -5
One day event. Depending on amount of shooters . Probably be 30 minute relay and 15 minute break between. Just thoughts not final . Im thinking 6 shoots per distance scored by group size. This would be 30 shots total per 5 distances 100,200,300,400,500
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Post by rossman40 on Aug 4, 2015 12:09:22 GMT -5
If it wasn't for Tony Knight and Doc White I doubt if the traditionalist would even allow modern inlines or sabots on the property today. The way I understood it the NMLRA was dying in the 80s under the leadership of die hard traditionalist. Tony Knight came in and flat told them he was selling thousands of inlines to potential members and if they wanted to have a chance at those and his support, they had better accept the modern inline. Then after the Quigly Down Under movie and increase in Cowboy shooting there was a huge upswing in BPCR. There was a slight tussel over who would be the governing body of BPCR. I think the NMLRA seen it as a way to expand and the NRA wasn't going to give it up. Supposedly it lead to better working relationship between the NMLRA and the NRA but it depends on who you talk to nowadays.
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Post by davesonic444 on Aug 5, 2015 15:10:15 GMT -5
I would be interested, depending on entry fee. Not much of a contender but would enjoy shooting distance. Dave
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