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Post by Typical171 on Jul 25, 2015 16:26:59 GMT -5
I wanted to build a CF action SML for quite some time now but didn't want to use modules or modified cases to ignite to charge. I love the ease of the 209, they ignite well so it was time to come up with a easy way to modify a Remington CF to use the 209 primers. I thought of a lot of different ways to do this but I want a cost effective method that uses the original firing pin. So what I came up with is to trim off the case seat of the bolt nose to provide a flat surface to bore a .500 dia. x .500 deep pocket into the bolt, then turn up a bushing with a 209 pocket cut into it. Clock and press the bushing into the bolt face. So here is the perfectly fine, unsuspecting 22-250 donor rifle. (it came with an organ donor card so.....) This is how I setup the bolt so I could get it indicated in straight before the boring operation. This is how it looks after the .500 x .500 hole is bored. The bushing was made from drill rod and a 209 pocket cut into it. And the finished modified bolt. While I had some time, I went and trued up the action just incase later on down the road I would decide to put the action back on a centerfire. With the action ready to go, I'm just waiting on the Krieger barrel to show up so I can finish it out. This is going to be another .40cal. The Krieger .40cal are .390X.400 dimensions with a 1-15 twist. It will be another month or so before it shows up so as I progress I will post more pics, but with all the interest in the CF 209 bolts lately I thought I would go ahead now and post the project I was working on. Joe
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Post by airborneike on Jul 25, 2015 19:51:28 GMT -5
Nice work Typical.Nothing wrong with that!
Are you going to drill the gas relief hole through the insert?
Anxious to see if the press fit works. Can always silver solder if it don't.
Machine work looks excellent and with your skills, making the whole bolt would be easy...you have already done the hard part.
I use a SA 700 with a 209 face and have nothing but praise for the way the system works.
Good job!
Mike
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Post by bowhunter1661 on Jul 25, 2015 20:44:08 GMT -5
Wow, it never ceases to amaze me what you all come up with in this board. I'm no gunsmith, but that looks like fantastic work to me! Nice job.
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Post by Typical171 on Jul 25, 2015 20:54:24 GMT -5
Nice work Typical.Nothing wrong with that! Are you going to drill the gas relief hole through the insert? Anxious to see if the press fit works. Can always silver solder if it don't. Machine work looks excellent and with your skills, making the whole bolt would be easy...you have already done the hard part. I use a SA 700 with a 209 face and have nothing but praise for the way the system works. Good job! Mike Thanks I wasn't really planning on it because I didn't think it was necessary what's your thoughts Also the bushing has a .001 pressfit On a half inch dia circumference and is Loctite in I figured that could withstand any stuck primer
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Post by airborneike on Jul 26, 2015 0:21:24 GMT -5
Typical171,
Truly nice work...can't say it enough.
Believe I would go ahead and drill the gas port through the insert so if you were ever to pierce a primer, would direct the gas into the magazine well and out the side port instead of back through the bolt.
Joe, Your idea is sound and if it wont offend you, may try this type of modification myself. Much less machine work than building the whole bolt.
I believe you will be very happy with the way it works and it works exceptionally good with the Arrowhead plug. The build I did, making the whole bolt, has really performed better than expected.
For those who like 209 primers and the added camming feature and safety of bolt locking lugs...this is a very good option.
Thanks for sharing
Mike
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Post by rambler on Jul 26, 2015 6:22:29 GMT -5
Wow, it never ceases to amaze me what you all come up with in this board. I'm no gunsmith, but that looks like fantastic work to me! Nice job. +1. Very nice.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2015 6:56:15 GMT -5
Looks pretty good. The new barrel sounds good also. You have been bitten by the 40 Bug. It's been going around. Ask Ohioguy I have to ask because this came up a very short time ago in reference to 209 CF bolts. 1- It was mentioned by a builder locking lugs do nothing for safety on a muzzleloader, ie MLII. Opinions from above posters in the know. 2- Camming. They all differ on 700's. Can't really rely on the cam for any type of crush fit? Who's gonna finally tell the sellers on GB thats rust not gold on their 700ML's?
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Post by Typical171 on Jul 26, 2015 7:11:51 GMT -5
Typical171, Truly nice work...can't say it enough. Believe I would go ahead and drill the gas port through the insert so if you were ever to pierce a primer, would direct the gas into the magazine well and out the side port instead of back through the bolt. Joe, Your idea is sound and if it wont offend you, may try this type of modification myself. Much less machine work than building the whole bolt. I believe you will be very happy with the way it works and it works exceptionally good with the Arrowhead plug. The build I did, making the whole bolt, has really performed better than expected. For those who like 209 primers and the added camming feature and safety of bolt locking lugs...this is a very good option. Thanks for sharing Mike Won't offend me at all Mike, This is no break through idea, just another way of doing it.
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Post by linebaugh on Jul 26, 2015 7:23:13 GMT -5
Typical171,
Outstanding idea and excellent work! If you don't mind what did you use for a cutter on the 209 track/slot?
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Post by Typical171 on Jul 26, 2015 7:24:00 GMT -5
Looks pretty good. The new barrel sounds good also. You have been bitten by the 40 Bug. It's been going around. Ask Ohioguy I have to ask because this came up a very short time ago in reference to 209 CF bolts. 1- It was mentioned by a builder locking lugs do nothing for safety on a muzzleloader, ie MLII. Opinions from above posters in the know. 2- Camming. They all differ on 700's. Can't really rely on the cam for any type of crush fit? Who's gonna finally tell the sellers on GB thats rust not gold on their 700ML's? Ive been bitten by the SML bug! I agree to some extent on the locking lugs. With a 700ml if a plug would decide to strip out and come back (small, small chance of that) the small set screw would do little to stop it but you still have the bolt handle recessed into the receiver some acting like a lock for the bolt, having said that the lugs are added protection up where it counts. My main reason for doing this one is these actions are available every where, I like the idea of being able to remove the bolt with a push of a button and like I stated earlier, if I later want to build a custom CF with the action I still can with the addition of another bolt. As far as the crush fit you would have to get a dimension from the receiver face to the primer seat to chamber your BP in the correct dimension Just like building a custom CF. It would not be a plug and play like the 700ml but could easily be fitted for the crush.
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Post by Typical171 on Jul 26, 2015 7:26:16 GMT -5
Typical171, Outstanding idea and excellent work! If you don't mind what did you use for a cutter on the 209 track/slot? Its a carbide 5/16 x .031 T-Slot cutter made by KeoCutters
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Post by jims on Jul 26, 2015 8:45:41 GMT -5
Impressive
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Post by Dave W on Jul 26, 2015 9:46:07 GMT -5
Very nice work!
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Post by airborneike on Jul 26, 2015 13:01:44 GMT -5
I believe Luke has shown in his destruction tests that a properly threaded plug will not blow out of a barrel.
The real question IMO is "are the CF lugs needed for safety?" to which the answer is no. Using a CF bolt might allow the use of a shorter BP safely.
The main advantage of using a CF bolt is the ability to have a tight primer pocket for sealing...
On a properly timed Rem 700 bolt, you have about .100 cam motion which is quite a bit of forward/rearward motion. Many Rem 700 actions have less than that because of their sloppy tolerances and you need to check when blueprinting an action that you don't end up after truing the lugs, with excessive space in the primary cam. If you do, you will have to remove the bolt handle and re-position it to get the full cam action. Re-positioning a bolt handle is an aggravating Job.
The Rem 700 CF action with the lug camming just makes it easier to seat a tight fitting primer. I do not try to hit the inside primer pocket shoulder with the end of the primer and rely on tightness for the seal.
When I was developing Lukes plug I learned a lot about how tight a primer needs to be for CONSISTENT (as in low es in fps) ignition. I had always thought that you just needed for the fire to hit the powder and that a little bit of leakage was ok. Didn't work that way in real time. A smooth, polished, slightly tapered, tight primer pocket is your friend.
Typical171 has developed a system that just makes perfect sense for us who like to use CF actions.
Thanks Joe, for a very good idea and post
Mike
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2015 13:17:17 GMT -5
Interesting way of looking at it.
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Post by Typical171 on Jul 26, 2015 14:23:17 GMT -5
I believe Luke has shown in his destruction tests that a properly threaded plug will not blow out of a barrel. The real question IMO is "are the CF lugs needed for safety?" to which the answer is no. Using a CF bolt might allow the use of a shorter BP safely. The main advantage of using a CF bolt is the ability to have a tight primer pocket for sealing... On a properly timed Rem 700 bolt, you have about .100 cam motion which is quite a bit of forward/rearward motion. Many Rem 700 actions have less than that because of their sloppy tolerances and you need to check when blueprinting an action that you don't end up after truing the lugs, with excessive space in the primary cam. If you do, you will have to remove the bolt handle and re-position it to get the full cam action. Re-positioning a bolt handle is an aggravating Job. The Rem 700 CF action with the lug camming just makes it easier to seat a tight fitting primer. I do not try to hit the inside primer pocket shoulder with the end of the primer and rely on tightness for the seal. When I was developing Lukes plug I learned a lot about how tight a primer needs to be for CONSISTENT (as in low es in fps) ignition. I had always thought that you just needed for the fire to hit the powder and that a little bit of leakage was ok. Didn't work that way in real time. A smooth, polished, slightly tapered, tight primer pocket is your friend. Typical171 has developed a system that just makes perfect sense for us who like to use CF actions. Thanks Joe, for a very good idea and post Mike Mike, Thanks for the comments and I agree with all that you said here . When you say a slight taper for the primer seal are you looking at .001 across the contact surface or even less then that? What diameter do you bore out the primer pocket before polishing? I have always struggle with which is the best for sealing, the nose contact or circumference interference fit? But you definitely have an advantage with the CF bolt for the helping of the sealing of the primer regardless which way sould want to seal.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2015 14:55:24 GMT -5
With the Savage CF bolt heads a bushing .190" deep into a Savage plug then headspacing the barrel tight for a primer nose seal results in no blowback and clean primers with a not soo tight primer fit. Just my observation through testing. Without the nose seal you run the risk of the primer not flattening out and sticking in the 209 bolt head which makes you have to restrike the primer to get it to come out. ( Two different systems but close to the same )
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2015 15:50:50 GMT -5
Interesting set up, machine work looks great. Is this gonna be a one off or will we see more of them out there?
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Post by Typical171 on Jul 26, 2015 16:07:52 GMT -5
Interesting set up, machine work looks great. Is this gonna be a one off or will we see more of them out there? For me this will probably be they way I build anymore SML for myself.
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Post by airborneike on Jul 26, 2015 20:12:47 GMT -5
Typical171,
I have built a few Savage target actions with the 209 bolt end and it is a good way to go too. Those who chose this system wanted the barrel fit like Remingtons...no barrel nut. Not a difficult task and over all easier than making a bolt or adapter as Typical did.
Both ways are good and there is hardly any difference in final performance...the Savage target action is probably more rigid than the Rem 700 but the 700 is less expensive.
I use a .2395 chucking reamer to cut the primer pocket and a dowel with 500 grit or higher to polish the internal walls with an eye to polish a bit of taper near the opening. 12droptine and Earnhardt are experts with polishing the primer pockets to fit and they have written about it in other posts.
In my experience the snug diameter does what I need without having to hit a custom .001 to .002 crush fit and allows for some dimensional differences should one want a DIY project.
I agree with Typical171 in that this is the way I will build any future SML's for myself. Either the whole bolt or I will try Joe's idea of an adapter.
Still some fertile minds out there
Mike
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Post by rambler on Jul 26, 2015 20:40:15 GMT -5
Typical171, I have built a few Savage target actions with the 209 bolt end and it is a good way to go too. Those who chose this system wanted the barrel fit like Remingtons...no barrel nut. Not a difficult task and over all easier than making a bolt or adapter as Typical did. Both ways are good and there is hardly any difference in final performance...the Savage target action is probably more rigid than the Rem 700 but the 700 is less expensive. I use a .2395 chucking reamer to cut the primer pocket and a dowel with 500 grit or higher to polish the internal walls with an eye to polish a bit of taper near the opening. 12droptine and Earnhardt are experts with polishing the primer pockets to fit and they have written about it in other posts. In my experience the snug diameter does what I need without having to hit a custom .001 to .002 crush fit and allows for some dimensional differences should one want a DIY project. I agree with Typical171 in that this is the way I will build any future SML's for myself. Either the whole bolt or I will try Joe's idea of an adapter. Still some fertile minds out there Mike I agree with Mike on custom polishing the primer pocket one's self. Just be patient and careful not to remove too much
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 15:34:54 GMT -5
For those who like 209 primers and the added camming feature and safety of bolt locking lugs...this is a very good option. Thanks for sharing Mike Do the locking lugs add safety? Just trying to figure this out as in one post it is and another post they are not needed. I just keep hearing build on a CF. It has locking lugs where the ML does not.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 15:39:49 GMT -5
The real question IMO is "are the CF lugs needed for safety?" to which the answer is no. Using a CF bolt might allow the use of a shorter BP safely. The main advantage of using a CF bolt is the ability to have a tight primer pocket for sealing... Mike The whole locking lug debate is confusing. Just trying to figure out why its safer or not. I was under the impression locking lugs were the safer route. I believe people were chastised in the beginning for building .416's on 700ML actions.
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Post by Typical171 on Jul 27, 2015 16:42:40 GMT -5
The real question IMO is "are the CF lugs needed for safety?" to which the answer is no. Using a CF bolt might allow the use of a shorter BP safely. The main advantage of using a CF bolt is the ability to have a tight primer pocket for sealing... Mike The whole locking lug debate is confusing. Just trying to figure out why its safer or not. I was under the impression locking lugs were the safer route. I believe people were chastised in the beginning for building .416's on 700ML actions. I can't speak for all, but for me the locking lug thing is a bonus, not specifically needed for the safety aspect. Yes its stouter in the axis of the bolt then the 700 ML action but I feel the BP is your locking lug in both actions. Thats why I say its added protection.
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Post by smokeeter on Jul 27, 2015 16:58:58 GMT -5
there is no doubt the CF action with the locking lugs adds strength, but............. they are more expensive to obtain than the ML action and they do require an FFL when shipping, just some added red tape. I really don't believe there is any danger in the ML action with an adequate barrel and breech plug.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 17:10:06 GMT -5
Typical171, Outstanding idea and excellent work! If you don't mind what did you use for a cutter on the 209 track/slot? Its a carbide 5/16 x .031 T-Slot cutter made by KeoCutters Even though the typical primer lip is about .028"-.030", you might want to open that primer lip slot up to a minimum of .035". Even the slightest primer bulging causes the primer to pop back out of the cup a little and up against the bolt face. Great idea man!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 17:19:24 GMT -5
The real question IMO is "are the CF lugs needed for safety?" to which the answer is no. Using a CF bolt might allow the use of a shorter BP safely. The main advantage of using a CF bolt is the ability to have a tight primer pocket for sealing... Mike The whole locking lug debate is confusing. Just trying to figure out why its safer or not. I was under the impression locking lugs were the safer route. I believe people were chastised in the beginning for building .416's on 700ML actions. Why yes, yes I was chastised for shooting .416s, and T-Rex loads out of my .45s with the 700 ML and the Savage ML. At first it was by avg guys on the board just telling me to be careful. And I was...and I still am... But the majority of flak I caught was from used car salesmen. Using "no locking lugs" as a scare tactic to prop up sales of their custom CF muzzle loaders with lugs... Used car salesmen don't scare me... or fool me. I have both non-lug muzzle loaders and CF muzzle loaders with lugs. They both shoot the same.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 17:24:01 GMT -5
Be careful out there big E, it's a scary world we live in
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Post by mrbuck on Jul 27, 2015 17:48:59 GMT -5
The bolt modification looks to be a very simple yet an effective way to convert the Remington 700 family of centerfire actions to muzzleloader actions . It looks sharp and the workmanship looks great . Why my XR100 with a new barrel and this bolt modification might be a real " one holer " ! Chris
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Post by Typical171 on Jul 28, 2015 14:58:24 GMT -5
Its a carbide 5/16 x .031 T-Slot cutter made by KeoCutters Even though the typical primer lip is about .028"-.030", you might want to open that primer lip slot up to a minimum of .035". Even the slightest primer bulging causes the primer to pop back out of the cup a little and up against the bolt face. Great idea man! Yeah Earnhardt, I already did that by walking the cutter up .004 and taking another cut.
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