|
Post by lwh723 on Jul 22, 2015 17:59:31 GMT -5
The 200gr XTP with HSB is the most consistently MOA or sub MOA combo that I've shot (even including sabotless loads). Unless something is horribly wrong with your setup, it's pretty much automatic MOA. Unfortunately, it's pretty much a flying brick for BC. That being said, with a MV of 2200FPS, you obviously aren't looking for extreme range. So I think it will definitely do the trick for you too. Sure can't beat the price on them either!
It's been a long time since I tried, but I think I blew sabots with 5744 less than 40gr loads during the summer. And that was with a really tight pac-nor. If you've got a loose barrel, it will be even worse. I want to say I ended up @ 30gr.
|
|
|
Post by driven2tri24 on Jul 22, 2015 21:13:31 GMT -5
Luke-I think the 200 XTP shoots sub MOA in my gun with HSB everywhere between 52-62gr of H4198 with 56-58gr producing .7" groups, but unfortunately that's pushing the speed beyond its limits in close. So I'll live with the 52-53gr at 2250fps and hope when the temps drop the speed will drop another 100-200fps.
I like the Slufoot duplex of 7-5744/53-h4198 at 2600fps but even once I obtain that ideal knurled sizing for them, I doubt I will be able to beat thieXTP's...and as said this gun was intended to cover my bases out to 200yds and I believe the 200xtp @2225fps and its tight groups have me covered if I can't finesse those SST's I to a bit tighter groups.
|
|
|
Post by driven2tri24 on Jul 23, 2015 17:47:11 GMT -5
Shot some more today with calm conditions, allowing ample cooling time between shots. 80 degrees. 1st group following foul shot was Slufoot's duplex load(7/53) SST 200 knurled very lightly to be <.4005 in HSB sabot.This was the best group of the day right @ 1.55"(which coincidentally matched yesterdays first group with Knurled SST's at .405- which gave me a 1.5" grp). Second group was same as first except they were knurled to .4025 and the group was 1.75". (I did not clean between these groups and now think this is the difference of the knurled groups) The 3rd group were unknurled SST's and they opened up to 3.5" group and I noticed the sabots looked good, but landed straight in front of the gun 10-15 ft out, whereas the knurled bullets were putting all of their sabots 15 feet off to the right and within a foot or two of each other despite the differences in knurling diameter.
With this experiment I've come to the conclusion that the SST's just need to be knurled a bit, not to size them, just to scuff them and that the first group following the foul shot will be the best.
I then shot a group of XTP 200's unknurled with a mild load of 53 gr H4198 in HSB and it gave me 2200 fps in a dirty bore with a 1.3" group. I then shot a 2.2" group with XTP's knurled to .4025(had to swab bore to load at >50-60#) and they opened up to 2.0" group, but get this...they chrono'd 120fps faster:)
I'm going to stick with some light knurling(aka scuffing) and the SST's with Slufoot's duplex load when I plan to go somewhere where I don't know if shots will be long or not, and just load XTP's with the H4198 portion of that that duplex load(53gr) for a tight woods gun.
Overall I'm really happy with Slufoot's work, help and everyone's support on here for this project. I was hoping for a bit better groups, but I still have the barnes to try someday(now that I'm an official "knurler")...
Thanks guys!
|
|
|
Post by lwh723 on Jul 23, 2015 18:34:14 GMT -5
Things will probably tighten up when the weather gets a little cooler. 80F is hard on sabots no matter how long you wait between shots.
|
|
|
Post by driven2tri24 on Jul 23, 2015 21:11:32 GMT -5
I agree. Either way, it's good for what it is and will be used for:)
|
|
|
Post by kennacl55 on Jul 23, 2015 21:36:52 GMT -5
Are you loading using a spin-jag or a regular rod? I would imagine you are using a spin-jag but it might make a difference.
|
|
|
Post by driven2tri24 on Jul 24, 2015 8:05:57 GMT -5
I'm using a Barnes aligner. I've used the spin jag and Barnes aligner and I like the Aligner just a little bit better of the two.
|
|
|
Post by driven2tri24 on Jul 29, 2015 7:54:31 GMT -5
Did some more shooting today with calm wind and 90 degrees. As suspected the 200 XTP/HSB sabot combo shot sub MOA with Slufoot's Duplex load(7-5744/53-H4198 @2600fps) or single loads of everywhere from 58-62gr of H4198(2600fps). The groups progressively opened to 1.5" as I went down to 52gr/H4198(2200fps). The tightest I've been able to get the SST's to shoot is 1.5"(although very consistent)and this required knurling to about .401 or more(same groups up to .405 knurled diameter).
I happened to notice that the 200 Shockwaves I had actually mic'd out .4005-.401 and the SST's were a true .400-.4005. So being that the SST's I knurled to.401 shot 1.5" grps, I thought would be a good test to see if it was a sizing issue or "traction" in the sabot issue. First group I shot was with the same load(58grH4198/HSB sabot)EXACTLY the same 2.5" groups as the unknurled SST's I started out with. I then shot another group with same load and Tan MMP and of course they opened up to 5.5".
So in essence, I'm pretty confident that the issue with the SST's in my gun IS in fact relative to "traction" in the sabot. Now the big question I have is: Would cooler temps improve that sabot/bullet grip and in turn shrink my 1.5" groups or would it likely remain the same/worse?
|
|
|
Post by mrbuck on Jul 29, 2015 11:54:00 GMT -5
I am probably one of the last diehard sabot shooters around the board . Been shooting smokeless since the first Savage ML10 module rifle came out . Just shot my first duplex load this Spring and knurled my first bullet also this Spring . As slow a learner as I am , I very quickly picked up on the fact that when the temperature climbed the groups opened up ! Anything over 70 degrees was a waste of bullets and powder if you were shooting to find an accurate load . Early mornings 55 to 60 degrees were OK . Best were overcast , calm 50 degree ( or less ) with a minimum of 10 minutes cooling between loadings ... 15 minutes or more is even better . Everyone always wants to play with a new toy as soon as they get it . However sometimes the new toy needs the correct conditions to really it's full potential . JMO Chris
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 12:12:43 GMT -5
Dave W is really knowledgeable on this subject maybe he will chime in
|
|
|
Post by Dave W on Jul 29, 2015 12:37:10 GMT -5
Dave W is really knowledgeable on this subject maybe he will chime in Don't believe anything this guy says. IMO Get the 195 Barnes, knurl them up, and don't worry about how fast you push them or if the deer are close. My .45 never shot the SST as well or consistent as it would a 195 BX or 200 XTP.
|
|
|
Post by driven2tri24 on Jul 29, 2015 16:04:47 GMT -5
Not a fan of solid copper bullets or the prices they carry, but I guess if I had known I had to knurl the SST's to shoot fairly, I probably would've just went that route.
I really like the way that XTP is shooting and I'm going to stick with it as my primary load, I just wish it was the SST so I could get a better BC/tougher construction, but then again we can't really control what our guns like. I'll probably stick with the 2400fps load I have and stick to lung/behind shoulder shots like I always do.
Does anybody have a "real world" BC for the XTP?
I came up with somewhere in the neighborhood of .125-.13 when comparing 100-200yd groups, but this sure seems awful low and based on only a handful of 200 yd shots.
|
|
|
Post by mrbuck on Jul 29, 2015 18:03:25 GMT -5
You don't need to rush to find the best load . There will be plenty of cool , calm , mornings to shoot before deer season . Are you shooting from a solid benchrest ... a solid bench shaves a lot off groups . A good front rest , good rear bag , a light , crisp trigger . Last Summer ( Mid August ) I worked with a rebarreled Savage MLII and with all of the above I was shocked at the groups ... But it was cool in the mornings and took my time . Chris
|
|
|
Post by driven2tri24 on Jul 30, 2015 6:50:55 GMT -5
I've been shooting off bags from prone position through a chrono. Once I have settled on which load I like, I usually zero the gun in the fashion I will most likely use it, such as with a bipod or shooting sticks.
|
|
|
Post by mrbuck on Jul 30, 2015 14:25:38 GMT -5
If at all possible try to get to shoot from a solid bench . That and the right weather conditions I'm very sure your groups will tighten . Before deer shrank and we suddenly needed 1/2" grouping rifles , an awful lot of deer were killed to 300 yards and more with rifle that shoot 1 1/2 " or more at 100 yards . Chris
|
|
|
Post by driven2tri24 on Jan 12, 2016 11:31:12 GMT -5
Thought I would revive this thread with an update on the XTP's performance. Sitting with my 9 year old and had a doe come in to 35yds of the blind. Wouldn't present broadside shot and it was really skittish when it seen the blind. We waited for the deer to turn broadside but after 5 mins we gave up and shot the deer in the brisket with H & R Handi Slufoot Conversion loaded with Slufoot's duplex load(7gr-5744/53gr H4198)under a .40 200XTP in HSB Sabot @ 2629fps in 10 degree temps (hence duplex load). Bullet entered just right of dead center and the deer fell over right there. It kicked once and didn't move again. After dressing the deer there was no exit hole. The bullet went in 1" right of center and through the shoulder blade exploding it but must not have reached the entrails as they were still intact as well as the diaphragm had no holes. The heart had a 1 inch hole through it's center. I don't know if the bullet exploded or if it's in an organ I removed. I plan on using a metal detector when I have time to search the guts when I have time.
Either way It did the job and reminds me of the .452 250XTP at higher speeds...deer just collapses like magic without an exit hole..
I think that aside from long range shots and subzero temps, the single powder load of 53gr of H4198 @2265fps will work better, but IF you happen to be loaded with the duplex load at these 2600+ fps speeds for expected cold weather and/longer ranges and a deer jumps out in close, the XTP200 will still get the job done nicely (on Ohio sized deer, not Elk)..
|
|
|
Post by pposey on Jan 13, 2016 10:32:04 GMT -5
A light knurl will help with any bullet/sabot,,,, you may not notice the difference until a hot day when the slick bullet blows a sabot and the knurled does not.
I would keep the xtp slower, it will perform better as it was designed to be used slower, will penetrate better, will expand just fine,,,,less kick= more practice and better shooting
|
|
|
Post by driven2tri24 on Jan 13, 2016 11:02:11 GMT -5
Used my kids metal detector and dug through the entrails before discarding. All I found were little pieces of jacket here and there throughout the lungs, liver and heart. After skinning the deer it was clear the bullet struck the leading edge of the shoulder blade and although exploding that shoulder into pieces the bullet broke apart on its way through and the remnants scattered throughout the chest which dropped it on the spot.
Today I shot another deer at about 35yds, but this time I used an SST to compare it against the XTP. I purposely tried to shoot this deer in the same spot but it wouldn't stay still and I was holding a long time waiting for the same angle. I ended up hitting it about 3" higher and 2" left of where I hit the other deer but the angle was the same. The SST entered the brisket missed the front of the shoulder blade and then struck the spine(was shooting uphill) and the bullet didn't exit. Using the same metal detector and (LOTS of digging) on this deer all I found were a couple of pieces of the jacket as well.
From my somewhat imperfect comparison and opinion, both bullets WILL do the job when encountering heavy bone. Neither entrance wound was larger than a quarter and both bullets left a clear path of at least 6-8" despite going through bone. I would also like to point out that in addition to both bullets becoming shrapnel, I found pieces of bone all over inside on the opposing side shoulder blade(deer #1) and of the spine(on deer #2).
I think both of these bullets perform very similar and are grenades on bone impacts when loaded at high speeds(for expected cold weather or long range shots) and will perform MUCH better with every yard of range added to the impact, they will however still get the job done should an in close shot be required.
As far as blood trails..There was plenty of blood where both deer fell(within 3 ft of impact, so obviously not required)and I'm certain that each would've left a path even Ray Charles could follow..
In both of my H&R Conversions Slufoot's pet duplex load(7gr 5744/53gr H4198) gets 2629fps avg and when sighted in at 175yds with 200 XTP it's 2.5" high@100yds. If I just load the 53gr of H4198 and shoot as a single I get 2265fps avg and zeroed dead on @100 yds and 3" low at 150yds. The duplex/XTP load prints MOA for both my guns and the Single H4198 load is consistently 1.25"@100yds (un-knurled). The SST 200 shoots consistently(when knurled lightly)@1.5"@ 100 yds with the same 3.5" groups @ 200 yds I get with the XTP, but with the Slufoot Duplex load shoots 2595fps avg and is 2.5" high@100yds and zeroed at 200 yds which extends my range out even further.
So if I head out to a stand where I expect shots inside 100yds, I'll just not add the booster(7gr 5744) and if I expect a shot over 100 yds, Extreme cold weather(like it is last few days here at -10 wind chill) OR if I want a low recoil load for a teenager(53gr single load is soft). If I setup on a really long shot above 150yds, I'll load the SST/duplex load.
This leaves me a LOT of flexibility with these 3 loads without re-sighting in at a very reasonable cost. Of course I could probably do the same thing with the BX 195, without having to "plan" for the shot, but the cost will be higher and I doubt even with significant knurling or sizing that it will shoot better than my current trio of loads.
|
|
|
Post by mike243 on Jan 13, 2016 20:15:05 GMT -5
update on the 240g, speed in cooler weather was just under 2400fps, shot a doe 1/4 hard away at close to 100y ,it hit the last rib and exited center of off side ribs.fist size going in and 1" out. worked fine,she was wide open and I wasn't hunting,loaded it after changing the scope and wanted to shoot at 100y for a hunt latter that week. stepped behind the barn and jumped 2 I was late to my granddaughters birthday party lol
|
|
|
Post by driven2tri24 on Jan 15, 2016 9:42:41 GMT -5
update on the 240g, speed in cooler weather was just under 2400fps, shot a doe 1/4 hard away at close to 100y ,it hit the last rib and exited center of off side ribs.fist size going in and 1" out. worked fine,she was wide open and I wasn't hunting,loaded it after changing the scope and wanted to shoot at 100y for a hunt latter that week. stepped behind the barn and jumped 2 I was late to my granddaughters birthday party lol Thanks for info on the 240 XTP as it's always nice to have info on other bullets, but the thread is a comparison & testing of the .40/10mm 200 XTP vs SST bullets on game at high impact speeds(2600fps). Next year I plan on updating this thread with results of the same bullets @ 2250fps using 53gr H4198 and see if they exit..
|
|
|
Post by mimath314 on Jan 15, 2016 15:19:00 GMT -5
I can't really complain about the XTP whether in .40 caliber at 200 (picture) or the .45 at 300 grains. Every deer has been DRT. I think there are better bullets especially at distances greater than 200 yards, but I have encountered no problems (up to 200 yards) with exceptional accuracy. They are also relatively easy to find and inexpensive. With that said I don't hunt with the 45/70 government where I'll have a possible 200+ yard shot and I don't pack a .223 where I might need to shoot through brush at either end. This was recovered from a nice buck shot in the brisket quartering to me at approximately 75 yards. It is the only XTP that I have recovered. .40 cal, blue harvester sabot and 42.5 grains of IMR SR 4759. RemPac.
|
|
|
Post by jeff on Jan 15, 2016 16:58:41 GMT -5
The XTP was the first goto bullet for most of us and out to 200 with a good load did its job very well. If you shoot it fast expect huge entry wounds at close range... this goes for its cousins too ( all pistol bullets ) edge. 10 -12 years ago or so I can remember Edge commenting on my bullet choice after I started my N/A big 10 quest with the savage ml2 shooting moose, elk, bear one fall with the 250gr xtp and Edge ask me why I wasn't shooting a better bullet instead of the little bomb, after some smart a$$ answer I gave him I switched to the 300 grain XTP for a few more species, then I went to the barnes original, and now the match hunter maybe. It's all about shot placement weather it's a xtp or the new bombs. jeff~
|
|