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Post by driven2tri24 on Jul 16, 2015 7:19:41 GMT -5
Guys, I just got done shooting my slufoot conversion for the first time and it obviously has real preference for the .40 200gr XTP in a HSB over 58gr of H4198. With this combo I'm getting .75" groups@ 100 and chronos at 2450fps. It also shoots these same groups at 60 & 62 grains but speed climbs to 2605fps.
I know the 200SST is supposed to be better at higher speeds but the best I could get with 200SST after working up was 2-2.5"@100.
So..will the little XTP do the job on deer at these speeds or do I need to look at trying to slow it down by working up a load with the 5744 I have on hand.
Any real world experiences with this bullet would be also appreciated.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 7:48:39 GMT -5
With either bullet inside 50yds at the speeds listed it might be messy but will get the job done. Try running the SST's between two files. Equal pressure across about 2" then back. Could possibly shrink your group size. Look at the bottom of an XTP and SST. See the difference?
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Post by driven2tri24 on Jul 16, 2015 9:23:34 GMT -5
I'm familiar with the differences between xtp/sst's (flat base vs rounded) and hence why I tried the xtp's after not getting the sst's to shoot up to my standards. The XTP's in the HSB load tighter(almost perfect) and I'm certain will shoot better at all speeds in this barrel simply because of that awesome fit. I'm positive that knurling would improve the SST groups as well, but if I hear enough support that the bullet will do the job at close ranges I would like to keep the SST's for my long range guns and save some money/hassle. My next session, I plan on trying some lighter loads of 4198 with the XTP (52,54,56 grns)maybe and see how much I can slow it down and still keep those nice groups. I might even try some 5744 to see if I can't get it < 2000fps and still accurate. FWIW I had a .65"grp with 58gr and .8 with 62gr of h4198 so I'm reluctant to use the SST.
I plan on using this gun as my tight woods/still hunting gun so I guess I need the confidence that the bullet will work in close. If guys tell me they've lost deer using this bullet when pushed at these speeds, I will proportionately try to find a slower load for it.
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Post by driven2tri24 on Jul 16, 2015 9:24:41 GMT -5
Maybe even try some BH209 if the 5744 doesn't group well.
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Post by rangeball on Jul 16, 2015 9:32:37 GMT -5
If you keep the xtp in the boiler room and within it's BC limitations, it will do fine.
Interesting observation on the fit though. They should be the same measurement. The xtp also has a thinner jacket allowing better obturation for better accuracy potential.
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Post by driven2tri24 on Jul 16, 2015 15:43:27 GMT -5
They both measure the same diameter, however I suspect the flat base gives it a tighter feel loading and I'm pretty confident that the thinner jacket/flat base does just as you've said (hence almost 75fps faster according to my chrono as well) in addition to the better groups(more traction to obtain proper spin). I believe that knurling sst's would tighten their groups.
FWIW- I tried 5744 from 30-40grns today with horrible results(6" at best)but it did chrono right at 2100fps with 40 grns, 2000 with 35gr and 1900 with 30gr. I tried 25gr for curiousity and it was at 1550fps. 22" factory HR 45/70barrel. Tried some .452 250 XTP's sabotless with 35gr and they were also all over the place but only clocked 1650fps:(
Then for giggles I shot a 1.1"group with BH209 (100gr by VOLUME) which clocked right at 2000fps and 120gr by VOLUME at 2200fps with another .9"group.
This is the velocity I want, so I'll keep that in that in mind if I can't keep the tight groups I had yesterday with 58gr H4198 when I try dropping the charge to 56, 54 and 52 until I get in the <2200 range with acceptable accuracy.
Do you guys think I'll have ignition issues running below 56 grn this winter?
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Post by rangeball on Jul 16, 2015 15:48:29 GMT -5
In a 45 with a tight primer seal and sabot fit, probably not ignition issues but likely fps drop off in colder temps.
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Post by edge on Jul 16, 2015 18:43:13 GMT -5
Summer groups can be problematic with sabots! The XTP was the first goto bullet for most of us and out to 200 with a good load did its job very well. If you shoot it fast expect huge entry wounds at close range... this goes for its cousins too ( all pistol bullets ) I'll take you back to 2004 with an SST: dougva.proboards.com/thread/1721/sst-wound-pictures-goryedge.
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Post by kennacl55 on Jul 16, 2015 21:57:54 GMT -5
You might want to try the 195gr. barnes bullet. It shots great in my H&R ultra slufoot conversion with a duplex load 10/50 grs. of 4759-4198, at close to 2700fps
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Post by edge on Jul 17, 2015 7:28:01 GMT -5
SNIP. Interesting observation on the fit though. They should be the same measurement. Some bullets have a pressure ring near the base that is slightly larger than the shank which would make for different feel. edge.
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Post by driven2tri24 on Jul 17, 2015 8:25:50 GMT -5
I know a lot of guys use the Barnes at upper end speeds with great success, but I'm trying to avoid knurling and I'm pretty certain that if the SST200's need it then so will the Barnes 195's.
I was hoping to hear from guys who've taken deer with either/and/or the SST200 or XTP200 and their thoughts on if I need to waste any more effort on trying to find a slower load than 2400-2600??
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Post by hunter on Jul 18, 2015 18:07:41 GMT -5
I have taken 4 deer with the 200 xtp and 40 gr of 4759 and all killed quickly. Also at least 2 with 56gr of 4198 and these worked well also. I never really looked nor found bullets so I can not state how they held together. All but one of the above was used on does and all were broadside or headon shots at 100 yds or less. I never chronied any of these loads so I do not know fps.
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Post by josmund on Jul 19, 2015 8:43:14 GMT -5
I know a lot of guys use the Barnes at upper end speeds with great success, but I'm trying to avoid knurling and I'm pretty certain that if the SST200's need it then so will the Barnes 195's. I was hoping to hear from guys who've taken deer with either/and/or the SST200 or XTP200 and their thoughts on if I need to waste any more effort on trying to find a slower load than 2400-2600?? I've taken several deer with the 200 SST with 100-110 grains ( by Volume ) of BH209. The bullet will fracture but in each case was effective. I'm guessing my speeds were North of 2000 but not at smokeless speeds.
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Post by 10ga on Jul 20, 2015 10:15:16 GMT -5
I was hoping to hear from guys who've taken deer with either/and/or the SST200 or XTP200 and their thoughts on if I need to waste any more effort on trying to find a slower load than 2400-2600?? I say yes, find a slower load for the XTP, been there and done that with both. I shoot the SST hotter, like the 24-26C. I shoot the XTP at 20-21C. That is about as fast as I want to drive the XTP for close range, like under 100 yards. Most of my kills (90%) are under 90 yds. With the 21C the XTP does real good at all the ranges I've shot it, 11 to 120 yds. I am shooting an Encore 45-70 conversion and Rem 700ML 45cal conversion and using the ribbed blue sabots, both barrels are tight. I lightly knurl all bullets that I shoot in sabots. Under 150 yards no real difference in accuracy but 150 to 250 the SST is better. I'm finding that at 26c the XTP gives really nasty entry and non exiting wounds. Closest XTP shots were at 11 and 13 yards. One was straight down from tree stand and the XTP bullet entered between the shoulders and exited the bottom of chest, 40lb young deer DRT. Other was a 160lb buck and it was a high neck shot and there was no exit just a blow up on the heavy neck muscle and neck bones and DRT. Another 20 yard XTP shot on a 140lb buck was a good mid rib shot, pass through and buck ran about 25 yards. Once had a 40 yd quartering on shot and had the xtp enter just inside the right front shoulder and end up in the left ham, 85lb doe, bullet full and excellent mushroom. Shooting the XTP or SST in rib shots have not recovered any bullets but all deer. experiences with the SST pretty much the same cept haven't had any close neck shots. These have been my experiences and yours may be different. best, 10 ga
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Post by ported45 on Jul 20, 2015 13:12:05 GMT -5
Took two deer with the XTP last year in an Encore Slufoot. The bullets acted like varmint bullets except that a small part held together to exit. Both were 60 yards; 5 minutes apart (had to reload slowly to avoid spooking the stupid one, shot the smart one first!!). Heart-shot the first and neck-shot the second as that was the only target I had as it was peeking out from behind a big oak. Load was .40 XTP in HSB propelled by 56 grains H4198.
Last month my wife found a good chunk of flattened lead in her tenderloin from one of those two deer. Found lots of shrapnel in both wounds, but never thought fragments would get all the way back to the tenderloins.
I ended up trading off the XTP's and kept my SST's for practice and will be shooting the 195 Barnes on meat.
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Post by driven2tri24 on Jul 20, 2015 17:13:27 GMT -5
Shot the XTP 200's today over 52gr H4198 / HSB sabot. Clocked right at 2200fps and a decent 1.5" group.(which I'm happy with).
Also knurled some SST 200's up to .405 diameter for the fun of it, and shot a 4 shot 1.25" group with Slufoot's Duplex load of 7gr 5744/ 53gr H4198 which clocked for an average of 2605fps.
So.. of the two loads I mentioned, which has the least chance of failing inside 100 yds???
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Post by edge on Jul 20, 2015 18:05:30 GMT -5
I have used the 250 XTP at 2600+ and have taken a nice buck at 200 yards. I also have shot these pistol bullets at 35 yards and they do make a mess and would only consider a boiler room shot! At close range they will not penetrate very far, but when they slow down they will go a long distance through meat but not a lot of bone. If you are an archer you know the shot and that is what I would suggest with that bullet...and you will be eating some fine venison edger.
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homebrook
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THIS MESSAGE BOARD IS SECOND TO NONE------ MORE GOOD INFO THAN U CAN SHAKE A STICK AT THANKS
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Post by homebrook on Jul 20, 2015 18:48:13 GMT -5
im learning a lot from this message board and i would like to see some one make a chart with bullet type, powder charge sabot or no sabot and the speed the bullet produces the biggest mushroom or bc then all i need to know is the speed my bullet is moving and i could pick the right one for the game im after homebrook
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Post by driven2tri24 on Jul 20, 2015 19:19:39 GMT -5
I always take the same shot for guns that I do with archery. I have used the 250xtp/sst at 2100fps in close and although no exit wound they have all fallen where they stood like magic. I assume the 200xtp would work in similar fashion at around 2200fps. I've read the 200Sst will take a little more speed, but unfortunately the only load that this gun seems to like is around 2600fps, and I need some reassurance that the 200SST is that much more sturdier than it's Xtp brother to handle that sort of speed at close in shots too.
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Post by edge on Jul 20, 2015 19:54:47 GMT -5
IMO, a pistol bullet has no business anywhere but the boiler room!
At close range you will not get good penetration and at almost any range it won't break big bone and continue on to vitals. IMO, hit the archery shot and there will be very little tracking no matter the distance. One way your get massive destruction and the other you get a straight line hole through both sides.
edge.
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Post by jims on Jul 20, 2015 20:18:44 GMT -5
For whatever reason I have found the 200 SSTs more sturdy than the 250 SSTs but have never lost a deer with either. But as indicated I use only heart/lung shots or a high shoulder shot or I do not take the shot. The boiler room shot usually travels well less than 50 yards but with a good trail.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2015 21:37:59 GMT -5
Great advice on the boiler room shot with either bullet imo. Ive shot a pile of deer with xtp's and sst's at BP and BH209 speeds and had great success. I did see a buck shot with a 250 SST at around 2700fps, it got the job done, but looked like a hand grenade had went off..
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Post by ratsnakeboogy on Jul 21, 2015 0:29:07 GMT -5
Shot the XTP 200's today over 62gr H4198 / HSB sabot. Clocked right at 2200fps and a decent 1.5" group.(which I'm happy with 2200fps seems quite anemic for 62gr. H4198.
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Post by driven2tri24 on Jul 21, 2015 8:01:18 GMT -5
Shot the XTP 200's today over 62gr H4198 / HSB sabot. Clocked right at 2200fps and a decent 1.5" group.(which I'm happy with 2200fps seems quite anemic for 62gr. H4198. I meant 52gr H4198. With 62gr I am getting a solid 2600fps. I updated my earlier post so my typo doesn't confuse anyone else.
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Post by ratsnakeboogy on Jul 21, 2015 9:17:51 GMT -5
2200fps seems quite anemic for 62gr. H4198. I meant 52gr H4198. With 62gr I am getting a solid 2600fps. I updated my earlier post so my typo doesn't confuse anyone else. Ah! Got it.
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Post by mike243 on Jul 21, 2015 17:20:15 GMT -5
I was pushing a 240g xtp rite around 2600 with my 50 last year and killed a doe close to 250y. no pass thru, the 250g sst was running a few hundred slower and pass thru on a few from 40y-100y or so. I will use both again this year with no reservations,I only shoot bow shots ,had a issue with a scope last year and spined a few and ruined some back strap
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Post by driven2tri24 on Jul 21, 2015 21:41:51 GMT -5
I'm going to play a bit more with the knurling of the SST's as I've come to suspect that knurling them to .405 might be more than I need. The XTP's shoot great unknurled and load with about 30# on my bathroom scale. Unknurled SST's load almost identical at about 29#. Knurled SST's @.405 take almost 50# of force(the ones I shot other day with a 1.25 group) and some I knurled today at .4025 load at exactly 40#. All of these are using HSB sabot.
The XTP's and SST's both measure exactly at .400 with my mic. I noticed a couple of the unknurled SST's had keyholed. I'm wondering if the slicker finish of the SST vs the XTP( easy to spin SST's in sabots vs XTP seems to grip better) is allowing it to spin in the sabot enough to keep it from stabilizing, and the XTP being a bit shorter along with flat base is getting enough effect traction to stabilize it.
I plan on trying to "scuff" the SST's up with <.0005 increase in size and shoot a group to see if they maintain the same group? If not then I will try and meet in the middle by knurling SST's to .4025
FYI knurling the XTP's didn't seem to affect it's groups whatsoever..
Any thoughts?
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Post by mike243 on Jul 22, 2015 3:36:32 GMT -5
if knurling doesn't affect them they are not slipping in the sabot.I have some 200g xtp that will blow the sabot. bought a file and will knurl and reduce the load to work up a load for my grand kids maybe.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2015 4:23:59 GMT -5
Shoot a couple groups with the supplied tan MMP sabots that come with the SST's. They should load with a little more resistance and might be what your bore needs.
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Post by driven2tri24 on Jul 22, 2015 17:30:04 GMT -5
I have shot the MMP tans and the best they will shoot 2"@50yds and 6"@ 100. Knurling the SST's to .405 did improve the groups to a solid 4 shot group of 1.25"@100yds behind slufoot's duplex load. This has been the best I've seen with the SST's even though straight 58gr H4198 has printed some 2.0" groups.
Knurling the XTP's didn't change the sub MOA groups I've had with loads as light as 52grns H4198(2225fps).Simply no difference except harder to load. So in essence I've decided this load @ 2200 will work for my needs without knurling.
Tried 5744 and they shot pretty poorly (even though speed was better matched to XTP's)and blew sabots at 40gr so I quit with that.
The SST's on the other hand, I believe I can back off a bit on the knurling to say .401 or .402 to ease up on the hard loading and see if I can shrink those groups even more.
Some reason this gun just likes those XTP's/HSB sabots without knurling...
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