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Post by timbers on Jul 1, 2015 9:01:48 GMT -5
Was wondering if anyone had any experience with or knew if it was safe to shoot a duplex load in a 50 cal. smi barrel? Most of the posts I've read are for the savage ml. I am planning on shooting 300g bo but would not be apposed to try 250s. The powder I have on hand are h4198, 5744, 2015, reloader7 and 5749. Thanks!
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Post by 10ga on Jul 1, 2015 9:29:39 GMT -5
Timbers, welcome to the board. Lots of help and info here. Just what kind of rifle do you have with a smi barrel. How long and how old is the barrel? Have you shot it before or are you new to SML? More info helps us to know where you need to start. And are you primarily a hunter or paper shooter? And what kind of style hunting do you do? All these can help to better direct the answers to help you. If you go to the load forum and comb through that there is info. RBinAR had much info on duplex in 50 and surmised the 50 could actually benefit more from duplexing than any other. dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/board/13/load-infoAgain welcome! 10 ga |
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Post by timbers on Jul 1, 2015 12:58:30 GMT -5
Thanks for the welcome 10ga. My smi 50 cal. smokeless barrel is on a tc encore frame 28" with 1:32. I purchased new from smi about a year ago and I have also owned and shot a savage ml2 so I do have some limited experience with sml. I would like to try to work up a long range load for deer hunting in iowa where shots up to 300 yards are not uncomon. I do have a chrony and do a lot of shooting and testing all my guns and muzzleloaders. Last year I worked up a load with 67 grains of h4198 with 250g sst and mmp sabots but had a problem with cold weather ignition. This load would shoot fine in the teens but when it dropped down closer to 0 it would misfire. I tried federal 209a and cci magnum primers. I'm hoping I can work up a duplex that won't be as temp sensitive. Thanks for any help!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 14:08:12 GMT -5
What breach plug are you using...Imo at least use a savage or one that is designed for smokeless powder...That would be my main concern....Have you had any bulging primers shooting the 250 sst's...?
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jul 1, 2015 14:22:34 GMT -5
What breach plug are you using...Imo at least use a savage or one that is designed for smokeless powder...That would be my main concern....Have you had any bulging primers shooting the 250 sst's...? The SMI breach plug is made for smokeless. I believe the problem is with a 250gr bullet and 4198. Even the best 250gr is far from ideal for 300 yard shots. No polytip is going to turn a brick into a flat shooter at that range. Step upto a Parker 300gr or Barnes 300gr Original. Even a 325gr FTX might be ok atleast in terms of improving ignition and retained energy. I would try the Parker 300gr BE for starters. |
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Post by joe1379 on Jul 1, 2015 14:51:31 GMT -5
Timbers, I have an SMI H&R conversion in .50 caliber. I have done quite a bit of testing with this barrel, which is probably the same as yours. (1-32 twist). I shot a few duplex loads through it and got MOA accuracy at 100. 10/50 ( 10 grains of 5744 and 50 grains of 4198 ) using a barnes original 300 grain. Unfortunatley my chronograph battery was dead this day so cannot give you the velocities. I actually decided to just use a straight load of 4759, 38 grains, which is a pleasure to shoot. While not a barn burner the recoil of this load is a pleasure to shoot, it never misfires, and using the barnes original I got 2.5 to 3.5 inch groups at 300 yards. I should also mention I used a number of sabots and the orange MMP always shot best with this bullet. Velocity was around 1950 FPS at the muzzle, but with this bullets better then average BC its still super sonic (1268) at 300 yards and has 1071 Foot pounds of energy at 300. Plenty for deer and they won't know the difference when they get hit. If you were to use a 44 grain load of 4759 you would get approx. the same energy and velocity at 400 yards. I just have not tried shooting at 300 with 44 grains yet and not sure I will. I am plenty satisfied with the 38 grain load in this gun. With the 38 grain charge I sighted in 2.5" high at 100 and that gives me a zero of 150, with a 6' drop at 200. You will have a 10 MOA come up for a 300 yard shot.
Even if you went to the 44 grain charge and had a 2200 FPS muzzle velocity you would still have a 7.2 MOA come up at 300. Good luck with your load development.
One more thing, I did send my SMI plug off to FIshhawk on this forum for machine work and a carbide bushing. I was tired of changing vent liner all the time and SMI uses their own liner. Just a thought!! Thanks again Greg.
Joe
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Post by muznut on Jul 1, 2015 15:10:12 GMT -5
Joe I agree IMR4759 is hard to beat in a 50cal. What size bushing did you go with?
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Post by timbers on Jul 1, 2015 15:16:44 GMT -5
I will try the 300 barnes original and 325 hornady ftx orange mmp with 4198 over 5744 duplex. I will chrony and post results for the loads. I'm checking into the parker bullets and the upgrade for my breech ventliner. Thanks again for all the great advice!
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Post by timbers on Jul 1, 2015 15:18:45 GMT -5
Would imr4759 alone be less temp sensitive than h4198 in your opinion?
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Post by rangeball on Jul 1, 2015 15:19:11 GMT -5
If you can find it VV N110 is also a wonderful powder in a .50. Easy to light up and very temp stable. 42gr will get you around 21-200fps with a 300gr bullet. You can also try Luke's APB for it's superior BC for long range shooting. Great powder.
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Post by rangeball on Jul 1, 2015 15:36:08 GMT -5
Would imr4759 alone be less temp sensitive than h4198 in your opinion? Yes. It is a faster powder and works well with the 250-300gr weight class bullets. It works very much like N110. The problem with these two powders though is N110 is very hard to find, and 4759 is being discontinued. If you plan to use it, buy as much as you can when you find it. |
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jul 1, 2015 16:20:44 GMT -5
I will try the 300 barnes original and 325 hornady ftx orange mmp with 4198 over 5744 duplex. I will chrony and post results for the loads. I'm checking into the parker bullets and the upgrade for my breech ventliner. Thanks again for all the great advice! The BOs are supposed to have a better BC than the 300gr BE but its also a MUCH tougher bullet. Barnes recommends a minimum of around 1900fps impact speed for reliable expansion with the Spitzers. The BE expands reliably at much lower fps. Assuming this is for deer and not elk, i would favor the slight loss in BC and gain more expansion. |
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Post by jims on Jul 1, 2015 17:44:02 GMT -5
Now this is from a memory that may not be correct but I thought SMI did not like sabotless or duplex loads. There recommended loads and powders I also thought varied from what Savage suggested.
You could contact them directly to be sure.
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Post by joe1379 on Jul 1, 2015 20:07:10 GMT -5
muznut, .30 bushing for the SMI. I love 4759 and 5744 for the 50 caliber. The 4759 just has slightly better performance IMO. I did not realize that the BO should have a 1900 FPS impact speed. Guess I can bump my 38 grain load up to 42-44 grains and see how it shoots out to 300. Probably will be just fine with a bit more recoil. I have never had one single misfire with either of these powders, regardless of bullet weight. SMI frowns on sabot less yes, however, IMO the barrel I have from them is extremely stout and I am not worried a bit about using a sabot less load. I just have not done so yet. I do however keep the loads in a "reasonable" range and don't get stupid. I feel totally safe shooting up to 48 grains of either of these powders with 250 grains and 45 or so grains with a 300 and have done so many many times. No sabot failure when cool time is allowed. I actually just ordered a bunch of THOR 250 grain bullets so I will have some good sabot less loads pretty soon.
Joe
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Post by timbers on Jul 1, 2015 21:03:01 GMT -5
For safety reasons (probably just to cover their ***) smi doesnt recommend sabotless or duplexing but who could blame them. I'm guessing savage would not recommend either?
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jul 2, 2015 11:10:33 GMT -5
Barnes is likely being overly cautious to prevent unhappy customers. The BO is d**n expensive for a mass produced bullet. Ive shot the BO with max loads of BH209 into water jug/soaked paper media. Expansion was excellent although the media was a bit tougher than muscle tissue. MV was right around 1900fps.
The jacket on a BE is less than half as thick and the core is soft like a BO. My WAG is it is a better choice assuming a max MV of 2300fps and a max range of 300 yards. I highly doubt you will get close to 2300fps with 5744 and a 300gr bullet. Even SR4759 is not the best choice if you wish to achieve 2300fps with a 300gr. Reloder7 gets pretty close and 4198 should get there with much less peak pressure.
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Post by joe1379 on Jul 2, 2015 11:58:47 GMT -5
Yeah 4198 and Reloader are probably better choices I agree, I was just trying to give some loads I have used that I know will go bang. Looking back at my log book I see that- 66 grains of 4198 (using BO) gave me 2322,2280,2368 FPS. group was not all that great though.
44 grains of 5744 """""""""" gave me 2,005,2023,2005 and gave me a 2' group at 200 yards. not a bad choice.
65 grains of 2015 """""""""" gave me 1,901,1,907 1,918 and 1.5" at 100 yards.
40 grains of 4759 """"""""""" gave me 2,030, 2009 and 1" group at 100. stopped at two shots? probably out of bullets.
I also see that 44 grains of 4759 with the BO and Black crush rib sabot gave me a blown sabot. Not sure if this was due to barrel heat or pressure but I apparently stopped at that one shot and reduced the loads again. I will have to go through my book some more tonight and see what other combos I have for the BO in my 50. I know I have tons of information from the 250 SST and FTX. With the 250's I always found the red crush rib sabot worked the best.
I know i had very repeatable accuracy and no issues with the 38 grains of 4759, orange MMP, and BO. Glad to see they still performed at that muzzle velocity for another member as I enjoy shooting this combo out of my 50 cal SMI.
Joe
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2015 15:32:18 GMT -5
I shot the BO back in the 50 day, killed my biggest buck to date with one but they can be hole drillers. A few friends had several issues with no expansion and a couple lost deer, we all went the .45 route and abandoned the BO.
If it works for you go for it, they do shoot well.
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Post by joe1379 on Jul 2, 2015 21:29:44 GMT -5
hillbill, you ever try the thors in your 50? I too now shoot a 45 that Richard built for me but I still like to tinker with my 50 caliber. I also want a spare gun around for buddies to shoot if they come hunt with me. I love not using sabots now and hope the Thor bullets shoot well.
Joe
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Post by Dave W on Jul 2, 2015 23:44:07 GMT -5
11/59 4759/H4198 with a 250 FTX worked pretty well in my Savage @ 2500fps+. Not as good as the N110/H322 duplexes but consistently under 3" at 200yds.
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Post by timbers on Jul 3, 2015 10:24:58 GMT -5
Joe did you happen to try duplex with the 250sst in your smi?
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Post by joe1379 on Jul 3, 2015 11:08:10 GMT -5
Yes, I did some duplexing but the chronograph battery was dead the day I shot them. (Same day I duplexed the 300 BO).
I shot 10/50----5744/4198 with the 250 SST and win 209 primer. shot pretty decent at a tad over 1" at 100 yards.
"""""" 10/60----4759/322 """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""". not so great. 2.5" at 100.
Straight loads of 5744 and 4759 shot just as well, and better, for me so I stuck with those. They do wear the vent liner out real fast so I sent my plug off to have a bushing installed. I did find a few more notes on the straight loads with the 250s. All these loads were shot with vent liner as I had not sent the plug off yet.
4759----42 grains gave 2098-2135 FPS and 1" groups. harvester red crush rib
46 grains gave 2289-2327 FPS and slightly under 1. harvester red crush rib
45 grains gave 2214-2271. using black harvester smooth printed 1.2 " at 100
5744----44 grains gave 2100 FPS and 1.5" groups
45 grains gave 2140 FPS and 1" groups.
47.5 grains 2225-2240 and 1.5 " at 200 yards. This was the best shooting of the bunch.Was using black harvester smooth.
I plan on doing some shooting real soon with the bushing in place and the Thor bullets, no sabot. I will post the results when I get done. Have not received my bullets yet so I am just waiting. I can also throw some parkers down range with a sabot and let ya know how they shoot. I have never tried those out of the 50. They shoot lights out in my 45 though!!
Joe
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Post by timbers on Jul 3, 2015 12:24:23 GMT -5
Joe thanks for all the great information it has been very helpful. I'm hoping to shoot this weekend and I will post results also.
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Post by timbers on Jul 3, 2015 12:36:26 GMT -5
Joe one more thing if you don't mind is I'm very interested in the carbide bushing for the breech plug. Did you say that flshhawk is who I should contact for this?
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Post by joe1379 on Jul 3, 2015 16:08:34 GMT -5
yessir!!!! turn around time was quick and he is very reasonable. You can PM him and he will get back to you. I sent SMI a check for a new one in January and have yet to hear from them. won't return calls or emails. I need to cancel that check I guess!! I had done some fifth grade machine work on the one I had so I could use the savage vent liners because I could not get any of the SMI liners due to their more than horrible customer service. Anyway, Greg (fish hawk) was able to work around my wrong doings and save the plug. I have yet to shoot it but seems to perfect. I highly recommend getting a bushing so you don't have to mess with the liners any more. I would also think liner wear would make for inconsistency in shooting as they wear. Hope your shooting goes great and glad I could help with my limited smokeless knowhow. There are guys on here that burn tons of powder and bullets so others don't have to and I am trying to give back when I can.
Joe
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Post by rangeball on Jul 6, 2015 9:00:34 GMT -5
The .500 thors shoot fantastic in my douglas barreled SMI .500.
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Post by joe1379 on Jul 6, 2015 14:16:41 GMT -5
Glad to hear they shoot well. Still waiting on my THORS. They sent out that pack of bullets for barrel sizing the next day. Great customer service so far. The owners were going away the day I ordered my bullets and she made it very clear it would be a little bit of a wait because of that. My barrel sized up right at .500 as well.
Joe
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Post by joe1379 on Jul 6, 2015 14:17:32 GMT -5
Rangeball, can I ask what load you are using with them and what grain THOR you went with?
Joe
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Post by rangeball on Jul 6, 2015 14:32:45 GMT -5
I use 42gr of VV N110 with the 250gr tipped thor. Shoots sub moa if I do my part. I also set a buddy up with a Bergara Barrel using the same load, same result. And they absolutely hammer deer. I bet with your .500 barrel they work very well for you also.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 16:23:05 GMT -5
You guys use a s&w 500 barrel for that conversion?
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