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Post by rangeball on Jun 23, 2015 14:04:02 GMT -5
We've all heard it before. If you shoot a bullet fast enough, it will leave the more before recoil has a chance to impact it's flight.
Fact or fiction? If fact, how fast does it have to be going?
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Post by rossman40 on Jun 23, 2015 14:21:18 GMT -5
I know for a fact on the M1A1 120mm shooting the M829 round,the recoil is a total of 12" and the gun has already moved a little over an inch when the projectile clears the muzzle. And that is coming out at 5500fps.
We see it a lot with pistol bullets. Slower bullets impact higher because the muzzle is already coming up from the recoil.
Gun weight would be a factor, it would take longer (we are talking in like 10ths of milliseconds) to get the larger mass moving.
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Post by fishhawk on Jun 23, 2015 14:35:22 GMT -5
The 460S&W of mine we were shooting at the ML meet will shoot 8" lower at 25 yds with 460 ammo than it will with 45 long colt.
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Post by moto357 on Jun 23, 2015 15:27:02 GMT -5
First time I saw this was with my 460 too.. Trail boss loads and 45lc hit higher
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Post by jims on Jun 23, 2015 15:45:11 GMT -5
Rossman: I do not disagree with you but it seems to me the M1A1 tank had a tube something in excess of 16 feet. A .220 Swift, even at a 1000 fps or more slower, might only have a tube 2 feet long. The Swift, although slower, might be out the end of the barrel quite a bit more quickly. I do not know how the mass of the projectile affects everything either. I have fired the Swift, never the Abrams. Still M60s when I was around.
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Post by bestill on Jun 23, 2015 16:25:55 GMT -5
I can't say one way or other but withmy mmuzzleloader if yyou lift your head off cheek peice to quick poi will go high. Good form and staying on gun after shot will definitely improve accuracy.
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Post by epanzella on Jun 23, 2015 16:54:01 GMT -5
As far as the original post is concerned, you can never shoot a projectile fast enough to eliminate movement of the gun. You can lessen the effect by faster velocity and lighter bullets but it can't be eliminated.
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Post by dannoboone on Jun 23, 2015 17:17:25 GMT -5
With my admittedly limited experience of shooting only 12-14 different cartridge types, I would have to say it is fiction.
Even with a bull 24" barrel on an Encore in Tactical 20, having an accuracy load of 4100fps with the old Hornday 33gr Vmax, and recoil so pleasant it barely moves the X-hairs off the bulls-eye, follow-through is just as important as with any "kicker" I have. That tells me that something is going on prior to the bullet leaving the barrel.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2015 17:27:09 GMT -5
I think that it is just like most other aspects of shooting, time is your enemy. The longer the bullet is in the bore the more likely you are to screw it up. You don't have to shoot a bullet 4000fps to get it out of the barrel quickly though, just as easy to choose a shorter barrel. It's a balancing game that 90+% of us would have nothing to gain by chasing. The worlds best shooters would likely be the only ones with good enough form and discipline to benefit.
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Post by gar on Jun 23, 2015 18:38:55 GMT -5
Consistently good form is utmost for accuracy. As a comparison, my 45 cal. ML shooting 75 gr. IMR 4198 will impact lower at 100 yds. than the same bullet and substituting BH209 for the 4198. Only difference I can see is time in the barrel making the BH impact higher than the 4198. My opinion.
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Post by hankinsrfls on Jun 23, 2015 18:43:32 GMT -5
Gar.
I noticed the same thing when I shot some BH209 loads.. 600 FPS slower but impact the target 2 to 3 inches higher..
Jeff Hankins..
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Post by edge on Jun 23, 2015 18:46:01 GMT -5
Newton's Third Law of motion. Equal and opposite reaction, you can't get around it!
Even if the bullet leaves at 1 fps the rifle will recoil, perhaps too small for you to notice, but it does.
edge.
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Post by Richard on Jun 23, 2015 19:02:45 GMT -5
Now this is a thread everyone (so far) is of the same opinion! Richard
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Post by bestill on Jun 23, 2015 20:34:05 GMT -5
Makes a falla appreciate accuracy of trigger man shooting a old flintlock with48" barrel it would definitely test your form and follow thru.
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Post by rossman40 on Jun 23, 2015 21:51:23 GMT -5
Jims, length on the M256 is closer to 17 feet or 44 calibers. If you scale it down to .50 cal it would be 22" long.
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Post by rangeball on Jun 24, 2015 8:43:18 GMT -5
Thanks all, these were my thoughts as well, just thought it would be an interesting discussion.
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Post by edge on Jun 24, 2015 9:29:20 GMT -5
Thanks all, these were my thoughts as well, just thought it would be an interesting discussion. If the barrel were infinitely stiff then all forces would be toward the breech, and if the barrel could only recoil straight back then the bullet would only have reduced velocity as a result but no deflection. Since some folks here routinely shoot sub MOA out to several hundred yards even if you attributed 100% of their shot dispersion to recoil the effect is fairly small. If you look at a recent target by Richard shooting the 290 Barnes bullet the vertical was well under 1/2 inch at 300 yards so most likely his horizontal dispersion was almost all wind deflection. Looking at Richards setup with his modified lead sled I would say he has reduced the recoil component to near zero edge. PS Group #8 top left:
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Post by fishhawk on Jun 24, 2015 11:00:13 GMT -5
Now this is a thread everyone (so far) is of the same opinion! Richard I disagree!
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Post by Richard on Jun 24, 2015 14:40:58 GMT -5
Greg......................You can't just say: "I disagree?" You have to give some substantive evidence? Right? That's like taking the fifth in court! Richard
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Post by 10ga on Jun 24, 2015 16:41:51 GMT -5
You are only talking ML and CF rifles. Everyone knows that RF does not move, rifles that is! And you guys talking about handguns, you should be ashamed to bring them into such a serious conversation. I'm with Greg! 10 ga
PS, I failed physics but caught lots of great fish that semester.
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Post by edge on Jun 24, 2015 19:21:51 GMT -5
SNIP. Everyone knows that RF does not move, rifles that is! SNIP. Ha, Ha, Ha that's a good one, everyone knows that even water guns have recoil edge.
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Post by fishhawk on Jun 25, 2015 7:44:57 GMT -5
I only disagreed to keep our threads consistent.
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Post by ratsnakeboogy on Jun 25, 2015 10:16:45 GMT -5
I only disagreed to keep our threads consistent. HA!!!
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Post by pposey on Jun 27, 2015 22:53:26 GMT -5
Hold is more critical with my springer pellet rifle than anything else that I shoot, exactly the same way every time or your gonna miss,,,
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Post by backstraps on Jun 28, 2015 8:21:31 GMT -5
I got this morning from a friend thought I would share. AMzing slow motion gunshots. The handgun shots show the bullet is long gone before the recoil moves the gun. "For those who believe that the recoil of a gun affects the aim to the target, here is proof that the bullet is gone by the time the gun starts recoiling. Recoil has absolutely NO affect on the aim... At over 1,000 frames per second, these super fast slow motion cameras are incredible" www.chonday.com/Videos/sowmoghy2
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 8:28:22 GMT -5
Don't know what powder they are using in the DE but mine doesn't blow smoke rings!
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Post by epanzella on Jun 28, 2015 10:32:32 GMT -5
I got this morning from a friend thought I would share. AMzing slow motion gunshots. The handgun shots show the bullet is long gone before the recoil moves the gun. "For those who believe that the recoil of a gun affects the aim to the target, here is proof that the bullet is gone by the time the gun starts recoiling. Recoil has absolutely NO affect on the aim... At over 1,000 frames per second, these super fast slow motion cameras are incredible" www.chonday.com/Videos/sowmoghy2 I don't buy that for a second. Even though movement is not obvious in video it's still there. It's impossible for it not to be there. The only thing that changes is the amount of movement and the observer's ability to measure it. Just look at the sights on a Ruger Redhawk 44 mag pistol. If you hold the sights on the bull at 25 yards the muzzle is pointing about 2 ft low. Many heavy recoiling guns have their POI go UP as bullets get heavier and slower despite their trajectories being flatter with lighter faster bullets. Get any textbook that covers the laws of energy and momentum. The formulas are very specific and there is no entry for a time delay in any of them. Awesome video! Interesting the way bullets tumble even after going thru a soft target like a plastic jar of peanut butter.
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Post by edge on Jun 28, 2015 11:18:58 GMT -5
SNIP. "For those who believe that the recoil of a gun affects the aim to the target, here is proof that the bullet is gone by the time the gun starts recoiling. Recoil has absolutely NO affect on the aim...SNIP. Here is a super slow mo showing that you are incorrect as it would violate the laws of physics! The relative mass between the bullet and the firearm make it seem as though the firearm is not moving. Here is 2:10 into this video and watch the recoil in super slow mo: www.tubechop.com/watch/6309339
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Post by 7mmfreak on Jun 28, 2015 12:18:30 GMT -5
I got this morning from a friend thought I would share. AMzing slow motion gunshots. The handgun shots show the bullet is long gone before the recoil moves the gun. "For those who believe that the recoil of a gun affects the aim to the target, here is proof that the bullet is gone by the time the gun starts recoiling. Recoil has absolutely NO affect on the aim... At over 1,000 frames per second, these super fast slow motion cameras are incredible" www.chonday.com/Videos/sowmoghy2 Incorrect. I'm firmly in the same camp as Edge and E-Pan and for the same reasons they have given.
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Post by rossman40 on Jun 28, 2015 14:28:42 GMT -5
Is it my imagination or just a point of view but in the video does the bullets seem to be dropping awful fast. At a 1000 frames per second you would only catch a bullet traveling 1000 feet per second every foot. In todays digital world 1000 frames per second isn't that tough anymore. There are some high speed cameras that can hit 2 million frames per second.
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