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Post by rangeball on Jun 26, 2015 10:23:50 GMT -5
Got to the range today with 9 loads of 50gr 4198/325 gr flextip (FF)/ fed 209 primer for my McSavage. Velocity for first 6 shots was all over the place with the cleanbore shot going 1969 fps, then 2062, 2057, 2144, 2017, 2125, 2140, 2145, 2149. The first 6 seemed to have different loading resistance. The last 3 were a bit hard to load but were all the same. The group was disappointing at about 2 1/2" @ 100 for 6 shots. Three shots @ 50 went into an inch. This is from a good bench that did under 2 inches @ 200 today with my other rifle. (300wsm) I ran each bullet thru the swinglock twice and then pushed them thru the bore. They were all on the loose side with a clean bore but didn't seem to be exactly the same. Am I doing something wrong when I full form or could it be the bullets? I'm brand new at sabotless. Thx I'm wondering if you simply need to up your charge. I'm shooting 70gr of H4198 with Luke's 310gr APB that's only 15gr lighter than the bullet you're shooting. Pressure just may not be enough at your lower charge to give consistent fps (although your last three were very consistent) and obturation, especially as that bullet has a pretty thick jacket if I recall correctly. Your last three shots had pretty consistent FPS. How did they group? I highly agree, once you're bore is fouled, don't clean it again until you are putting it away for long term storage, or if loading get's really difficult and even then I'd just hit it with a wire brush.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2015 10:25:11 GMT -5
Easy Richard! You're standing close to that edge of sounding like an a-hole seems you had a sizing question not long ago that had you using up some computer time!
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Post by epanzella on Jun 26, 2015 10:28:42 GMT -5
Richard, Some "opinions" are closer to "fact". You have already done 50 times more SML shooting than I will do in my lifetime. It's funny you mentioned .455/6" because when I mike my 458 bullets after full forming, they come in a few tenths under .456 on the OD. I can't get a reading down to .0001 that I have 100% confidence in because the anvil on my mike is wider than the groove width so as it turns the slug wobbles around a bit. My dial indicator is easier to capture the OD but tenths on it are a guesstimate. This is confusing to me because my slugs don't all seem to have the same loading resistance. Also, with my FF die set @ "20" the bullets seem to go in the muzzle fairly easily but bind up to a strong 2-hander about halfway down then loosen up again nearer the chamber. Could this be fouling accumulating in that area or could this mean the barrel need lapping? I've read all the awesome results you get from duplexing but I'm reluctant to go there just yet because of fear of making a loading error in the field. I don't mind knurling and forming 452 bullets but I fear the loads I'll be using will not result in sufficient obturation for accuracy. An artificial shoulder has me concerned about massive recoil particularly since I only need dead deer out to 200yds. Thanks for all your expertise.
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Post by onecardchuck on Jun 26, 2015 10:30:47 GMT -5
I have been getting good results using the .451/2 variety of bullets full formed. Yes full formed! I knurl them between two files and get them to right around .455/6" and then run them one time thru my FF die. While they might not totally fill the bore/grove, it is enough to get them rotating properly and, with a little kick of Clays (or Red Dot or for that matter any of the faster flake type pistol/shotgun powders) "I believe" they will then fully engage the grove. I have gotten results as good with no full forming just dependent on which bullet you use. You questioned about the Lee hand sizer and .458 bullets.............Have not tried but probably would with some bullets particularly if you keep adjusting the die for maximum leverage. I would be a hard one to convince that duplexing is not the way to go for reliability and quick obturation (which I relate to accuracy) But then opinions are just like A--holes..........everyone has one I just base mine on "a lot" of real world bench time! vs. computer time. Richard Yes agree with Richard duplexing is the way to go. Oh yes results will vary by bullet types for example I forgot to mention I came up with this full forming regime sizing 300 grain .458 Barnes TSX bullets and they are hard and require more work to get them sized with consistency. Using 300 grain or heavier bullets have had good success with N110/H322 10/60 or 15/55. Currently working with BlueDot/Benchmark only because I can't get RedDot, Clays, or H4198 here, but this dang weather has not allowed for much shooting between wind and rain.
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Post by rangeball on Jun 26, 2015 10:41:34 GMT -5
If you are only looking for 200 yard performance have you considered much lighter bullets? Especially with a bum shoulder and recoil limitations?
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Post by epanzella on Jun 26, 2015 10:48:00 GMT -5
Got to the range today with 9 loads of 50gr 4198/325 gr flextip (FF)/ fed 209 primer for my McSavage. Velocity for first 6 shots was all over the place with the cleanbore shot going 1969 fps, then 2062, 2057, 2144, 2017, 2125, 2140, 2145, 2149. The first 6 seemed to have different loading resistance. The last 3 were a bit hard to load but were all the same. The group was disappointing at about 2 1/2" @ 100 for 6 shots. Three shots @ 50 went into an inch. This is from a good bench that did under 2 inches @ 200 today with my other rifle. (300wsm) I ran each bullet thru the swinglock twice and then pushed them thru the bore. They were all on the loose side with a clean bore but didn't seem to be exactly the same. Am I doing something wrong when I full form or could it be the bullets? I'm brand new at sabotless. Thx I'm wondering if you simply need to up your charge. I'm shooting 70gr of H4198 with Luke's 310gr APB that's only 15gr lighter than the bullet you're shooting. Pressure just may not be enough at your lower charge to give consistent fps (although your last three were very consistent) and obturation, especially as that bullet has a pretty thick jacket if I recall correctly. Your last three shots had pretty consistent FPS. How did they group? I highly agree, once you're bore is fouled, don't clean it again until you are putting it away for long term storage, or if loading get's really difficult and even then I'd just hit it with a wire brush. I'm trying to keep recoil down because of a fake shoulder but it does seem that all the guys getting good results are shooting hotter loads than me. Maybe I'll have to start creeping up a bit. From my chrono readings, it seemed like it took 6 shots to foul the bore.Thanks
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Post by rangeball on Jun 26, 2015 10:54:36 GMT -5
What was the group size on your last three shots?
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Post by epanzella on Jun 26, 2015 11:00:32 GMT -5
What was the group size on your last three shots? bout 2 inches @ 100.
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Post by jims on Jun 26, 2015 12:24:35 GMT -5
I have a variety of ways I shoot my various smokeless MLs. At the same time for under 200 yard deer hunting in cold weather if I were forced to use sabots and lighter loads I know it would work as that is what my daughter uses and it has worked well. In her .45 she uses the Harvestor blue sabots and either `195 grain Barnes or 200 grain SSTs. She got three dead deer last year that did not move except vertically. She uses 10 grains of 4759 followed by 50 grains of 4198. A mild load that kill deer well
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Post by Richard on Jun 26, 2015 12:30:21 GMT -5
Look at the 225 FTX, knurled and FF sized. Worked great for me last week. I just got done forming up about 35 of them for shooting next week.
Richard
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Post by rangeball on Jun 26, 2015 12:31:29 GMT -5
200 yard goal with low recoil definitely calls for a 195bx in a hsb if state laws allow for it. If you aren't going to push the FTX that hard I would suspect the terminal performance it's going to give you. Barnes makes a 250 gr .458 that can be FFd that I was able to get shooting sub moa at 2300 fps, would make a great 200 yd deer killer.
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Post by epanzella on Jun 26, 2015 13:44:00 GMT -5
Thanks for all the help, guyz. I've got plenty of your ideas to try. I'll let you know what happens.
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Post by rangeball on Jun 26, 2015 13:47:37 GMT -5
If it takes more fps/psi to get your desired bullet to shoot for you, you might consider a brake to reduce the recoil. Or a lead sled from the bench, personally I don't feel/remember recoil at all when shooting at game
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Post by epanzella on Jun 26, 2015 16:59:53 GMT -5
I had some 250gr XTP's kickin' around so I knurled about 15 of 'em. They went from .452 to .456. Next stop, the Swinglock.
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