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Post by epanzella on Jun 8, 2015 19:30:46 GMT -5
With hunting season rapidly approaching I need to make a decision as to full forming and I have some questions. 1. Is a full form die like a collet with slits? If not how does it expand and contract? 2. Who is the best provider of full form dies? 3. How much barrel drop is required? Thx in advance for any help.
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Post by Richard on Jun 8, 2015 19:43:29 GMT -5
No, it is not like a collet. It takes about? ???maybe 1 1/2" of barrel. The end of the barrel drop is turned to a taper which interlocks with a reverse taper. As the top piece is screwed down on the the drop, it constricts it.. Someone like Hank or Airbornie who have made them might better explain. Richard
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Post by hankinsrfls on Jun 8, 2015 20:54:16 GMT -5
Richard explained it pretty well..
For me to make a full form bushing I need .700 length of barrel. The bushing will finish out at .650 so if you have a drop at least that long I can make it for you..
I have a few in stock, ready to ship dual purpose full form/smooth dies using Brux and Krieger 1-20 twist barrel drops. If you do not have a drop and have either of these barrels then I have you covered.
If you want me to make a bushing using your drop it usually takes me a week or two to get it done..
Thanks. Jeff Hankins...
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Post by lwh723 on Jun 8, 2015 21:20:50 GMT -5
Swing-Lock is hands down best smooth or full-form die out there--easiest to adjust and best resolution.
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Post by edge on Jun 9, 2015 7:25:04 GMT -5
Richard mentioned 1 1/2 inches of barrel, not because that is how much is needed for the actual die, but because a certain portion of a rifle barrel blank has less than perfect sizing. Most precision barrels are lapped and as the lap enters and exits the barrel you get more and less precise wear. This happens on both ends of the barrel but one end you machine for the breechplug so you never see that part of the barrel. The muzzle end of a barrel blank needs to be cut off to remove this imperfect portion. It may only be 1/2 inch or it may be more but generally you cut off about 1 1/2 inches to be safe and more if the blank is long and you want a shorter barrel. The actual length used for the die is up to the maker and their design.
edge.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2015 8:42:35 GMT -5
With hunting season rapidly approaching I need to make a decision as to full forming and I have some questions. 1. Is a full form die like a collet with slits? If not how does it expand and contract? 2. Who is the best provider of full form dies? 3. How much barrel drop is required? Thx in advance for any help. What bullets do you plan on shooting? Just curious. Thanks
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Post by epanzella on Jun 9, 2015 12:02:34 GMT -5
With hunting season rapidly approaching I need to make a decision as to full forming and I have some questions. 1. Is a full form die like a collet with slits? If not how does it expand and contract? 2. Who is the best provider of full form dies? 3. How much barrel drop is required? Thx in advance for any help. What bullets do you plan on shooting? Just curious. Thanks I've had good luck with Hornady FTX 325 gr flextips in my 45-70 and Encore 209x50. I have plenty of these on hand so methinks it would be a good starting place.
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Post by epanzella on Jun 9, 2015 12:11:55 GMT -5
Richard mentioned 1 1/2 inches of barrel, not because that is how much is needed for the actual die, but because a certain portion of a rifle barrel blank has less than perfect sizing. Most precision barrels are lapped and as the lap enters and exits the barrel you get more and less precise wear. This happens on both ends of the barrel but one end you machine for the breechplug so you never see that part of the barrel. The muzzle end of a barrel blank needs to be cut off to remove this imperfect portion. It may only be 1/2 inch or it may be more but generally you cut off about 1 1/2 inches to be safe and more if the blank is long and you want a shorter barrel. The actual length used for the die is up to the maker and their design. edge. I have about 3 1/4 inch of barrel drop including the stamped muzzle end. As I contoured it before I cut it, the OD is .900 inch.
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Post by epanzella on Jun 15, 2015 10:49:14 GMT -5
Well I finally bit the (fullform) bullet and ordered the die from Tom at Swinglock. Two weeks turn around. Thanks for the help, everyone.
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Post by hankinsrfls on Jun 15, 2015 19:21:03 GMT -5
Well I finally bit the (fullform) bullet and ordered the die from Tom at Swinglock. Two weeks turn around. Thanks for the help, everyone. What barrel blank are you using?
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Post by epanzella on Jun 15, 2015 19:24:04 GMT -5
McGowan .450 x .458 x 18
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Post by epanzella on Jun 21, 2015 10:08:10 GMT -5
My SWINGLOK die has arrived. Pretty slick. Just fitted some hardcast 45-70 slugs to my McSavage bore to get my feet wet. I have a precision press (Harris, I think) that makes really accurate ammo but doesn't have the power of a compound leverage machine like the Rock Crusher so I have to unscrew the die to get into the last bit of ram travel. I was pleasantly surprised at the ease and consistency of the FF die with the straight Lyman #2 alloy bullets. Once I'm comfy I'll start doing jacketed bullets.
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Post by jims on Jun 21, 2015 10:43:26 GMT -5
Some of the jacketed bullets are tougher creatures, good start though
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Post by Richard on Jun 21, 2015 16:25:37 GMT -5
That is probably one of Lynwood Harrell's presses. Excellent press, just not for the force used to FF jacketed bullets. Richard
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Post by epanzella on Jun 21, 2015 18:29:47 GMT -5
That is probably one of Lynwood Harrell's presses. Excellent press, just not for the force used to FF jacketed bullets. Richard Yeah, I think you're right. I got tired of screwing the die in and out so I made a new 2-piece punch out of some brass stock. Each piece is about an inch long but only one is machined like a shell holder while the other is a straight .445 cylinder. I put the first one in the shell holder to start the bullet and then stick the second one on top to push it thru. If my schedule remains undisturbed I should be able to shoot some of these slugs tomorrow. I have .462 veggie wads and some 50 gr charges of 4198 prepared.
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Post by Richard on Jun 21, 2015 22:18:38 GMT -5
Lynwood made those more specifically for the bench rest shooters who do their loading mostly at the matches. The thought being lighter weight for transporting. Richard
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Post by epanzella on Jun 22, 2015 14:30:19 GMT -5
I full formed a dozen (hard cast) slugs and pushed them all thru the barrel with plug out. No prob. Get to the range, set up, fire first shot. 2205fps. Loading effort was perfect. Second slug loads reeely hard, I mean rubber mallet hard. Recoil is increased and velocity is now a hair under 2300fps. I pack up and go home. Can anyone give me a ballpark figure for compensation from clean to fouled bore? It's 45 minutes each way to the range. I was gonna try 2 tenths but I'm just throwing darts here.
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Post by rangeball on Jun 22, 2015 14:44:37 GMT -5
Did you inspect the barrel? Are you getting leading with the hard cast and smokeless powder at those speeds?
Was the bore perfectly clean to begin with?
Even with jacketed bullets it takes me 4-5 shots for the bore to be consistently fouled with H4198 to size too.
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Post by Richard on Jun 22, 2015 19:12:47 GMT -5
You may be leading the barrel? Do you have a place you can set up your press? Lee makes a portable hand press? I have one and was able to size a jacketed bullet thru it?http://leeprecision.com/breech-lock-hand-press.html Richard
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Post by epanzella on Jun 22, 2015 21:32:40 GMT -5
It looks like I've got some leading. I used 2 coats of ALOX but I think 2200fps is just too much even for a hardcast slug. I'm gonna drop from 50 to 40 gr 4198. That should put me in the 1600 to 1800 fps range. My press has kind of a built-in C-clamp for loading right at a match. It forms hard lead ok but I don't know if it will size a jacketed slug. I'll have to try it. Oh well, tomorrow is another day.
Richard; Do you size 458's on that Lee hand press or just land riders?
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Post by jims on Jun 23, 2015 6:30:21 GMT -5
I do not know how much a gas check would help or hinder your efforts.
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Post by rangeball on Jun 23, 2015 8:47:53 GMT -5
Do you intend to keep shooting the hard cast or move on to jacketed bullets? If jacketed, you might as well skip the hard cast as the die setting for them is likely to be different than the setting you'll need for jacketed.
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Post by epanzella on Jun 23, 2015 11:19:27 GMT -5
I do intend to use jacketed bullets. (325FTX) I only was messing with cast bullets because I already had the mold for my 45-70 and I didn't think my small bench rest press was up to FF-ing jacketed bullets. Anyhoo, I decided I'd at least try to FF jacketed 458's and to my surprise, between a 2-piece punch and screwing the die in and out my little press was able to do it without too much fuss. I fitted them a bit loose to my bore (-.0002) because I just cleaned the lead out of it from my previous tomfoolery. Now to get them to shoot. Thanks, all, for your patience with me.
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Post by epanzella on Jun 23, 2015 11:20:03 GMT -5
duplicate post
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Post by epanzella on Jun 25, 2015 19:04:15 GMT -5
Got to the range today with 9 loads of 50gr 4198/325 gr flextip (FF)/ fed 209 primer for my McSavage. Velocity for first 6 shots was all over the place with the cleanbore shot going 1969 fps, then 2062, 2057, 2144, 2017, 2125, 2140, 2145, 2149. The first 6 seemed to have different loading resistance. The last 3 were a bit hard to load but were all the same. The group was disappointing at about 2 1/2" @ 100 for 6 shots. Three shots @ 50 went into an inch. This is from a good bench that did under 2 inches @ 200 today with my other rifle. (300wsm) I ran each bullet thru the swinglock twice and then pushed them thru the bore. They were all on the loose side with a clean bore but didn't seem to be exactly the same. Am I doing something wrong when I full form or could it be the bullets? I'm brand new at sabotless. Thx
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Post by rambler on Jun 25, 2015 19:42:42 GMT -5
Barnes Originals have worked pretty good for me full forming. I believe Luke has some as well as other sources. I wouldn't go above 60gr of 4198 or it's equivalent. I still need to do some fine tuning myself but I was getting promising results with those. Was using some duplexes as well...10/50 4759/4198. (corrected) Richard is big on that Clay's but its very hard to come by in my area.
The best bullet I've shot out of my break open is the 275BE Parker. Expensive but get what you pay for. Smooth form with a firm push.
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Post by ratsnakeboogy on Jun 25, 2015 20:37:58 GMT -5
Barnes Originals have worked pretty good for me full forming. I believe Luke has some as well as other sources. I wouldn't go above 60gr of 4198 or it's equivalent. I still need to do some fine tuning myself but I was getting promising results with those. Was using some duplexes as well...10/50 4198/4759. Richard is big on that Clay's but its very hard to come by in my area. The best bullet I've shot out of my break open is the 275BE Parker. Expensive but get what you pay for. Smooth form with a firm push. Might want to reverse that duplex. I know most here know what they're doing, but someone new may not.
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Post by rambler on Jun 25, 2015 21:21:12 GMT -5
Barnes Originals have worked pretty good for me full forming. I believe Luke has some as well as other sources. I wouldn't go above 60gr of 4198 or it's equivalent. I still need to do some fine tuning myself but I was getting promising results with those. Was using some duplexes as well...10/50 4198/4759. Richard is big on that Clay's but its very hard to come by in my area. The best bullet I've shot out of my break open is the 275BE Parker. Expensive but get what you pay for. Smooth form with a firm push. Might want to reverse that duplex. I know most here know what they're doing, but someone new may not. Thank you. Good catch. I edited the post.
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Post by onecardchuck on Jun 26, 2015 8:13:28 GMT -5
Got to the range today with 9 loads of 50gr 4198/325 gr flextip (FF)/ fed 209 primer for my McSavage. Velocity for first 6 shots was all over the place with the cleanbore shot going 1969 fps, then 2062, 2057, 2144, 2017, 2125, 2140, 2145, 2149. The first 6 seemed to have different loading resistance. The last 3 were a bit hard to load but were all the same. The group was disappointing at about 2 1/2" @ 100 for 6 shots. Three shots @ 50 went into an inch. This is from a good bench that did under 2 inches @ 200 today with my other rifle. (300wsm) I ran each bullet thru the swinglock twice and then pushed them thru the bore. They were all on the loose side with a clean bore but didn't seem to be exactly the same. Am I doing something wrong when I full form or could it be the bullets? I'm brand new at sabotless. Thx Epanzella I have been full forming for a while, but by no means am I an expert. Here is what works great for me and if it helps you all the better. First of all now that you got your gun dirty don't clean it. If you have any bullets left from your previous range session or forming put one in the bore about 6 to 8 inches down. Hold one end up of the barrel up to a bright light while looking in the other end. Take notice of the amount of light coming through around the bullet. Then what I would do is adjust your die maybe 1/2 a thousands to a 1 thousands larger. Yes larger. Run the bullet through the die two or three times, and then let it sit over night. Next day run it through two or three more times. Clean goop off the bullet. See how it loads on a dirty bore. You are looking for the feel to be two handed loading but not hanging on the rod. Once you have a bullet sized like this then put it in the bore 6 to 8 inches down and do as before with light at one end and looking in the other. What you should notice is the closer you get a bullet to match the bore the less light that will show around it in the bore. Keep adjusting and playing until you get very little light showing around the bullet but you can still load the bullet on a dirty bore with both hands and then go shoot. Hope this helps, P.S. One more thing to try when running the bullet through the die multiple times. Once you run the bullet through once. Take off the flex tip. Line the bullet up in the die according to your previous mark. Start slowly pushing it through until a little resistance and then stop. Now take a flat head or phillips head screw driver and put in in the front hole of the bullet that you took the flex tip out of. Make sure the screw driver fits snugly in the hole. Now seesaw the bullet in and out of the dye using the screw driver to turn the bullet ever so slightly. When you feel solid resistance back the bullet out and turn ever so slightly and push in keep doing this until you feel less resistance meaning you perfectly lined up the lands and the bullet will go through the dye with one hand. Mind you this takes a little getting used to but once you get the hang of it no problem. I know all of this sounds like a lot of trouble, but once you get used to it becomes very easy and your groups will improve.
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Post by Richard on Jun 26, 2015 9:49:36 GMT -5
I have been getting good results using the .451/2 variety of bullets full formed. Yes full formed! I knurl them between two files and get them to right around .455/6" and then run them one time thru my FF die. While they might not totally fill the bore/grove, it is enough to get them rotating properly and, with a little kick of Clays (or Red Dot or for that matter any of the faster flake type pistol/shotgun powders) "I believe" they will then fully engage the grove. I have gotten results as good with no full forming just dependent on which bullet you use. You questioned about the Lee hand sizer and .458 bullets.............Have not tried but probably would with some bullets particularly if you keep adjusting the die for maximum leverage. I would be a hard one to convince that duplexing is not the way to go for reliability and quick obturation (which I relate to accuracy) But then opinions are just like A--holes..........everyone has one I just base mine on "a lot" of real world bench time! vs. computer time. Richard
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