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Post by bestill on Jun 6, 2015 19:51:25 GMT -5
Ive been researching burn rate and pressure created by 120 gr fffg loose777 vs 120 gr blackhorn both bye volume. Seems777 is fast powder and creates higher pressurethan bblackhorn which is slower powder. Also found that crushed pellets create a higher pressure. Curious what board knowledge is on this subject?
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Post by encore50a on Jun 7, 2015 10:34:04 GMT -5
I think that if you contact Western, they have the pressures charted on a graph.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jun 7, 2015 11:06:19 GMT -5
There are 3 85gr by weight BH209 45cal traces in the pressure trace thread. Ive always hoped that heavier loads would have been tested in the same barrel with the same equipment.
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Post by rkrobson on Jun 7, 2015 11:23:01 GMT -5
I think you know this Jeff, in a 8 page article wrote in Precision Shooting in 2007 by Jungle Jim scott, where he shot the Ultimate 50 caliber and interviewed Ken Johnston of Ultimate, Ken claimed 52,000 psi using 4 Pyrodex Pellets and a 270 grain bullet. He also stated all 200 grains burned in the first 9" of the barrel because the magnum rifle primer causes a high order of detonation of the powder. I have this and several other articles on the Ultimate, but this article is the best. I have shot cases of Pyrodex and Triple 7, loose and pellets, and I did not see T-7 as having any significent additional pressure, just a little less fouling. Ray
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Post by triplese7en on Jun 7, 2015 15:00:48 GMT -5
200 grains of 777 had to produce a monster-sized crud ring after a couple shots. I reckon a sledge hammer was also needed to free it's frozen breechplug.
Crud rings and frozen breechplugs are why I swore-off 777. Never again. Used it for 4-5 years and ran out of swear words using it. No more greased breechplugs to clean anymore either......... yippie yi yay!
Not totally into Blackhorn yet either. The powder seems to prefer too many grunts from me loading the bullet. On the opposite side of the spectrum, I have literally seen bullets fall off the end of the barrel using a loose Buffalo SSB 285 grain sabot. I have over 250 of these bullets remaining and hate seeing dust on the boxes.
I may go back to real blackpowder FFF. Will decide next spring.
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Post by encore50a on Jun 7, 2015 16:47:08 GMT -5
200 grains of 777 had to produce a monster-sized crud ring after a couple shots............. Not so. It doesn't produce any more of a crud ring than if you were shooting just 50 or 100grs. Like any rifle shooting T7, you have to swab between shots. |
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Post by triplese7en on Jun 7, 2015 19:56:50 GMT -5
200 grains of 777 had to produce a monster-sized crud ring after a couple shots............. Not so. It doesn't produce any more of a crud ring than if you were shooting just 50 or 100grs. Like any rifle shooting T7, you have to swab between shots. I should have mentioned that I swear by the two shot rule when muzzleloader hunting, or target shooting, so not swabbing 777 for two shots is why I complained above on the crud ring thing. I do get a little crud ring using higher doses of FFF Real Black. But it's a softer crud than 777. Breechplugs remove very easily using Blackhorn or Real Black. All I use is white teflon tape...... no more greasy mess. I haven't purchased Pyrodex since the late 1990s. Last purchased American Pioneer about 10 years ago. Both Pioneer and Pyrodex appear to be the worst in drawing moisture inside the barrel. |
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Post by encore50a on Jun 7, 2015 20:23:09 GMT -5
Not so. It doesn't produce any more of a crud ring than if you were shooting just 50 or 100grs. Like any rifle shooting T7, you have to swab between shots. I should have mentioned that I swear by the two shot rule when muzzleloader hunting, or target shooting, so not swabbing 777 for two shots is why I complained above on the crud ring thing. I do get a little crud ring using higher doses of FFF Real Black. But it's a softer crud than 777. Breechplugs remove very easily using Blackhorn or Real Black. All I use is white teflon tape...... no more greasy mess. I haven't purchased Pyrodex since the late 1990s. Last purchased American Pioneer about 10 years ago. Both Pioneer and Pyrodex appear to be the worst in drawing moisture inside the barrel. I'm shooting 180grs of T7 and can get the 3rd bullet down the barrel. Two isn't an issue for hunting. However I shoot for accuracy and long range, so swabbing is required between each shot. |
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Post by AJ on Jun 8, 2015 6:09:32 GMT -5
The nasty crud ring was my reason for kicking T7 to the curb. I shot Pyrodex for years with a swab after every shot but the corrosion was something I did not like. When I tried BH209, I found a new favorite powder. Higher velocities, better accuracy, no need to swab, I can hunt with a dirty bore with no corrosion worries, and the cloud does not stink as bad. You can keep T7, I have no intention of ever using it in my guns again.
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Post by schunter on Jun 8, 2015 6:53:52 GMT -5
The nasty crud ring was my reason for kicking T7 to the curb. I shot Pyrodex for years with a swab after every shot but the corrosion was something I did not like. When I tried BH209, I found a new favorite powder. Higher velocities, better accuracy, no need to swab, I can hunt with a dirty bore with no corrosion worries, and the cloud does not stink as bad. You can keep T7, I have no intention of ever using it in my guns again. AJ, Not sure where you hunt or shoot but BH209 residue in the high humidity south will cause rust in your bore. Luckily I caught mine in time before any damage was done. I have not looked back since I started shooting BH209 either! I just cant hunt with a dirty bore here for more than a few days. Scott |
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Post by encore50a on Jun 8, 2015 7:13:24 GMT -5
I think bestill's question relates more to the barrel pressures created by the two different propellants, vs rather one creates a crud ring.
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Post by AJ on Jun 9, 2015 6:03:41 GMT -5
AJ, Not sure where you hunt or shoot but BH209 residue in the high humidity south will cause rust in your bore. Luckily I caught mine in time before any damage was done. I have not looked back since I started shooting BH209 either! I just cant hunt with a dirty bore here for more than a few days. Scott Here in the desert Southwest of New Mexico, I have left a stainless steel Omega that had a dirty bore loaded for over a year and when I shot it, the bullet hit the mark as expected. I cleaned the bore as normal and it is clean and shiny. I have been using BH209 since it came out and I am not looking back. |
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Post by triplese7en on Jun 9, 2015 12:20:06 GMT -5
Exactly! Most of the hunting is in cool, cold weather and there's less humidity overall. Unless you are living in a typical humid zone most-all of the year, you can leave burnt BH209 in the bore during the hunting trip.
I have tried it for two weeks, in both humid and non-humid outdoor conditions already and I've only been using Blackhorn since March. The cleaner/swabbing agent I will use this hunting season is Birchwood-Casey 2 In 1 Bore Scrubber, which cleans everything and has a small amount, built-in rust inhibitor in your bore. Even when swabbed dry between shots, remnants of that inhibitor remain.
BH209 has some serious positive benefits, despite a couple negative sides to it, which by-the-way, aren't enough to switch me back to 777 or Real Blackpowder.
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Post by sabotloader on Jun 10, 2015 17:12:14 GMT -5
BestillDo not know if this is relevant to your question but here are some recorded pressure curves. Thanks to someone on this forum. 
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Post by AJ on Jun 10, 2015 19:07:14 GMT -5
BH209 has some serious positive benefits, despite a couple negative sides to it, which by-the-way, aren't enough to switch me back to 777 or Real Blackpowder. You got it Brotha!!! This matches my thoughts and experiences. |
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Post by bestill on Jun 10, 2015 20:06:05 GMT -5
Sabotloader, yes that is exactly info needed wish it was more detailed with pressure marked on chart
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Post by encore50a on Jun 10, 2015 20:37:50 GMT -5
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jun 11, 2015 9:15:11 GMT -5
Sabotloader, yes that is exactly info needed wish it was more detailed with pressure marked on chart Each bar in the graph is 5kpsi and IIRC its for 150gr by volume and 3 pellets with a 250gr bullet in a 50cal ML. |
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Post by sabotloader on Jun 11, 2015 10:56:44 GMT -5
Sabotloader, yes that is exactly info needed wish it was more detailed with pressure marked on chart Each bar in the graph is 5kpsi and IIRC its for 150gr by volume and 3 pellets with a 250gr bullet in a 50cal ML. thanks for the info Scott - nice to know someone pays more attention than I do... |
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busta
8 Pointer
Posts: 105
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Post by busta on Jun 14, 2015 18:31:39 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure that time/pressure curve chart was done by Western Powders in their ballistics lab. If you crack or crush the pellets, the pressure spike is way up there. Totally changes the burning characteristics of the pellets.
I know I had a chart stored on my old desk top computer from way back in 2008/2009, but I never transferred it to my lap top or phone.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jun 15, 2015 11:22:51 GMT -5
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Post by willametteson on Jan 20, 2016 3:26:11 GMT -5
I know I'm digging-up an old thread here........but this seems like a pretty important point to understand. Especially for a first-time muzzleloader owner like me perusing the forums.
All powder measurements referred to in this post are measured by VOLUME.
From my understanding, CVA's 150grain maximum load is not being communicated well at all by the company in most of their literature. It makes for a lot of confusion to the new guy like me that just bought his first, and is looking online to see what others are doing with theirs, and/or recommending.
To my understanding, CVA isn't making it clear enough that when they say the max load in their magnum-rated guns is 150 grains, that means a charge that is equivalent to 150 grains of Black Powder.
To my understanding (which is not a strong one in this scene), that means (in terms of max loads/pressure)
1) 110grains of FFF 777 is the equivalent of 150grains of Black Powder. (Note: for some reason, CVA says no FFF in their guns......?).
2) From Hodgdon's 777 load notes page "To duplicate a blackpowder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%. ". They say "velocity", but does this correlate to pressure the same way? My understanding is that this would make the max load of 777 2f used in a CVA muzzleloader to be ?120grains?
3. Haven't seen an official conversion chart as to the equivalency of BH209, to Black Powder, so I would have to operate under the assumption that Western Powders recommended max of 120 grains is most likely equivalent to 150grains of Black Powder. Would CVA intentionally recommend a maximum load for their magnum rated muzzleloaders, that exceeds the powder manufacturers recommendation by 30 grains?
DISCLAIMER: The following is to the best of my recollection.........don't take my word for this. I do not know what I am doing. Call CVA if you want to know for yourself.
I called CVA to clarify their "no sabot loads over 300grains no conicals over 400grains" rule, as I insist on using at least 440grains for conicals used on our Roosevelt Elk we have out here. After some back and forth, I was told that 440grainers would be OK in a CVA OptimaV2 or AccuraV2, so long as the charge did not exceed 100 grains EQUIVALENT to Black Powder. So I should be able to make a plenty reasonable elk load out of that.
Just wanted people to look further into what "Magnum rated for 150grains" muzzleloaders actually means, and bring awareness to the confusion before someone messes up royally hurting themselves by loading 150grains of 777 or BH209 behind a heavy conical because they thought they knew it was OK from their research online.
Again.........I could be wrong about everything in this post.
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