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Post by superkirby on May 26, 2015 9:24:58 GMT -5
But I have some questions. I have an Encore with a 20" Shilen 1-14 twist MGM barrel and .030 Encore bushing plug. I'm not looking to hit blazing velocities but I am looking to eliminate the sabot and I really want to shoot heavier bullets, something in the 250-300 gr. range.
I don't have a barrel drop, so it would have to be a smooth die. Would I need to get wads then? Or can you run smooth bullets without wads?
I also see everyone is using an RCBS. I have a Dillon progressive press. Would that work with the die or would I need to find a different press. I don't know if I can justify the cost of the RCBS press just for sizing bullets.
And last, there seems to be some debate about safety in break actions and sabotless. I usually stay around 56-58 gr. 4198, so nothing real hot. But I still don't want to go sabotless and blow myself up.
Thanks for the help.
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Post by cuda on May 26, 2015 10:20:14 GMT -5
What size is the bore? I have a 450-458 in my 45 McGowan and I shoot the Barnes 290gr TEZ .451 all copper. They fit to where they just start to engrave the rifling onto the bullet and they will spin as you push them down bore I use a lubed wad with them too.
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Post by rambler on May 26, 2015 10:53:06 GMT -5
Looking at your press online it appears to be compatible with a Swinglock die. I say again "appears".
If it were me I'd get that die, go sabotless and stay with that powder amount. The 290TEZ is gonna give you some back talk, might be a good choice if you keep the powder load mild.
The Parker 250 or 275BE works like a champ out of my break open as does the Hornady 250FTX, see 78riverat's post on those.
This is just some of the things I've experienced in my little time in this arena. Others that know more should chime in.
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Post by GMB54-120 on May 26, 2015 15:05:18 GMT -5
Try loading one of the Barnes .451s first and see how or if they load. You might get lucky with Barnes or Parkers right out of the package. The 275gr BE may even be right up your alley with the semi mild loads. They are usually very very accurate as land riders.
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Post by superkirby on May 26, 2015 23:41:04 GMT -5
I'll see if i can figure out the exact bore size. I know it's .458 groove diameter, and I'm pretty sure it's a .450 land. I'll have to see if I have any Barnes still floating around. I sold most of my bullets when I sold my last .50, but perhaps I still have a couple floating around. I hate to buy a whole pack and find out they don't fit, but if it does work it would be worth it.
Does the wad matter? I mean, certain brands, wool vs. veggie, etc.?
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homebrook
Spike
THIS MESSAGE BOARD IS SECOND TO NONE------ MORE GOOD INFO THAN U CAN SHAKE A STICK AT THANKS
Posts: 43 
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Post by homebrook on May 28, 2015 17:13:32 GMT -5
HI
im looking for the same info. i shoot an encore with a 27 inch Doughlas MGM BARREL 45 CAL so far Parker be 275g no wad and 60g of IMR4198 seam to work well, barrel never looks dirty with this powder. any info about any other loads well well be appreciated THANK YOU ALL
homebrook
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Post by Richard on May 28, 2015 20:58:29 GMT -5
I would definitely recommend using a wad. For me it would be a veggie or cardboard type wad. I never found any advantage with the wool wads other than they just plain ole' stink when you light them up  . The wad is useful in sealing the groves which the smooth sized bullet has failed to fill............Those groves are where pressure leaks. Richard |
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Post by superkirby on May 28, 2015 21:07:53 GMT -5
I'm going to see if i can set least find some veggie wads tomorrow. Not sure about bullets yet. I'm thinking about ordering the adjustable fire and buying some ftx's. They seem like an economical bullet with decent performance on whitetail. Which bullet size do i want for sure? I assume .458?
A very generous member offered to send a care package so I'll wait to see what's in there before buying too much.
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Post by gar on May 29, 2015 4:09:47 GMT -5
Smooth sizing you will want .451/.452 bullets so it can ride the lands. Ftx's will shoot ok but need to be a bit snugger fit than the Parker BE's to achieve the same or near same accuracy. If all you do is to hunt with I would just get the Parkers, but if you shoot a lot then the FTX's are more economical.
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Post by dannoboone on May 29, 2015 8:25:26 GMT -5
Which bullet size do i want for sure? I assume .458? The .458's will work only with a full form die. Even if you could compress .008", it would probably deform the bullet base. You will probably notice a difference in force needed between .451 and .452 sizing. |
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Post by superkirby on May 29, 2015 9:06:00 GMT -5
Thanks guys. Glad I asked.
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Post by epanzella on May 29, 2015 19:01:47 GMT -5
I'm trying to get my head around full forming. I've watched the vids showing the indexing of the bullet to the barrel section in the die for multiple passes. This seems to indicate that all the lands/groove are not identical. If that's the case, wouldn't you also have to index the bullet to the bore? Being as the bore section in the die can be in any orientation as compared to the bore on the rifle, how do you reconcile the two?
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2015 19:03:43 GMT -5
I'm trying to get my head around full forming. I've watched the vids showing the indexing of the bullet to the barrel section in the die for multiple passes. This seems to indicate that all the lands/groove are not identical. If that's the case, wouldn't you also have to index the bullet to the bore? Being as the bore section in the die can be in any orientation as compared to the bore on the rifle, how do you reconcile the two? Very good question this is where I struggle also! Your way explaining is way better than I could do! |
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Post by 12ptdroptine on May 29, 2015 19:16:14 GMT -5
I'm trying to get my head around full forming. I've watched the vids showing the indexing of the bullet to the barrel section in the die for multiple passes. This seems to indicate that all the lands/groove are not identical. If that's the case, wouldn't you also have to index the bullet to the bore? Being as the bore section in the die can be in any orientation as compared to the bore on the rifle, how do you reconcile the two? Very good question this is where I struggle also! Your way explaining is way better than I could do! I have read on here that with the Brux.and the Krieger barrels there is no alignment problems. Maybe someone who has that brand and full forms will explain |
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Post by epanzella on May 29, 2015 19:27:59 GMT -5
I have a McGowen barrel. 450/458 land/groove. 1 turn in 18 inches.
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Post by Dave W on May 30, 2015 12:36:24 GMT -5
Myers .375 Pac has to be indexed to a certain land/groove or the bullet will not go in the barrel, so it is easy to index.
Put an index mark on the bullet and keep it on there. Then go through the process of lining the index mark up with different lands on the barrel and push the bullet through on a clean barrel with the plug out. One pass on each land. Then go to a tighter fit and do it again. Repeat the process until you are satisfied you see no difference in fit or you find there is a certain orientation of bullet and barrel that gives a noticeable seating resistance.
Pretty sure Luke recently said his Brux has a different feel on different lands. Someone said the McGowens do not need indexed but my .442 does.
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Post by superkirby on May 31, 2015 0:57:35 GMT -5
Got my care package today. I won't say who as I don't want to put him in a plae where he's always expected to do the same thing, but I hope he knows I appreciate it. He can chime in if he wants. Anyway, he sent me some 300 gr. Speers and xtp's, Parker match hunters, Barnes TMZ's and TEZ's. All were too big. There's a possibility that if I really got after it and gave it all I had, I might maybe could have gotten the barnes down, but if I could it wouldn't be practical for hunting at all. I guess the point of this is that if I'm going to consider sabotless, I'm going to have to get a smooth die. It's tempting, but I have something over 600 bullets and sabots, so I may burn those up first. I'll think about it awhile.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 9:56:46 GMT -5
Got my care package today. I won't say who as I don't want to put him in a plae where he's always expected to do the same thing, but I hope he knows I appreciate it. He can chime in if he wants. Anyway, he sent me some 300 gr. Speers and xtp's, Parker match hunters, Barnes TMZ's and TEZ's. All were too big. There's a possibility that if I really got after it and gave it all I had, I might maybe could have gotten the barnes down, but if I could it wouldn't be practical for hunting at all. I guess the point of this is that if I'm going to consider sabotless, I'm going to have to get a smooth die. It's tempting, but I have something over 600 bullets and sabots, so I may burn those up first. I'll think about it awhile. That was a generous gesture done, shame none of them fit for you. Just a thought, but you could always sell some of your stash to fund some or all of your smooth die, it'd be worth every penny and you'd never regret it IMO. Again, just a thought, nothing wrong with shooting sabots, but nothing better/easier than shooting sabotless. Good luck which ever way you go. |
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Post by superkirby on May 31, 2015 10:06:35 GMT -5
That's not a bad idea. I wonder what a couple hundred SST's would go for, maybe a couple hundred 200 gr. XTP's as well? I'll have to think about this idea.
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Post by rambler on May 31, 2015 10:12:56 GMT -5
That's not a bad idea. I wonder what a couple hundred SST's would go for, maybe a couple hundred 200 gr. XTP's as well? I'll have to think about this idea. Put 'em on the for sale board and let nature take it's course  |
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Post by superkirby on May 31, 2015 10:16:17 GMT -5
Probably will, but don't want to sell them all as I still have a .45 Contender ML and need to save some for that. So I need to figure out about how many to sell to get enough for a die. I assume to cover shipping and all it would probably cost me $200 for a smooth die.
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Post by rambler on May 31, 2015 10:18:53 GMT -5
Luke has the smooth for about 160 plus shipping.
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Post by 7mmfreak on May 31, 2015 21:01:11 GMT -5
I have a McGowen barrel. 450/458 land/groove. 1 turn in 18 inches. My McGowen does not need to be indexed |
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 21:13:10 GMT -5
I have a McGowen barrel. 450/458 land/groove. 1 turn in 18 inches. My McGowen does not need to be indexed When I shot 100 yards with my McGowen it would stack the bullets ontop of each other however when I moved out to 200 yards it seemed as if they were thrown all over the place. Have you seen similar results? Or I'm I doing something wrong? Full form is what I'm referring too. |
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Post by 7mmfreak on Jun 2, 2015 4:04:32 GMT -5
Mine is a solid 1-1.5 MOA gun, with the occasional wallet group showing up.
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. The wad is useful in sealing the groves which the smooth sized bullet has failed to fill............Those groves are where pressure leaks.
