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Post by eml9 on May 1, 2015 18:36:32 GMT -5
.45 Mcrem, savage plug,ventliner, 68 grains h4198...Went to the range today on my 12th shot I heard a fizzing sound coming from my plug,it lasted about 30 seconds . I shot again , same "fizzing" sound again. So I removed the bolt, broke the seal of the plug and it popped like a soda full of carbonation.( best I can describe the sound). The tape On the threads looked no different than any other time I pulled the plug after sshooting, the tape from the thread to shoulder was gone ,it was burnt laying in the barrel where the breech shoulder would seal to the barrel.there was no sign of gas cutting . . . the only thing I did different was put Teflon tape all the way to the sealing shoulder , I normally just tape the threads . it seems to me gas was trapped and slowly seeping out . I just don't no how. It was somehow holding gas pressure.Has anyone had this happen ?
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 18:52:28 GMT -5
Only tape the threads.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 18:59:57 GMT -5
I've taped all the way to the front on plugs that had known gas cutting but never experienced this. Are you sure you didn't eat Taco Bell for lunch? That will cause gas leaks  |
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Post by eml9 on May 1, 2015 19:24:36 GMT -5
No taco bell lol . I thought It was my ears ringing because I forgot my ear plugs but when I broke the seal to the plug it literally popped from the pressure .. Sounds crazy I no.. but it happened ...
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Post by fishhawk on May 1, 2015 20:09:58 GMT -5
What plug? If it was a Savage plug, it might have been pressure trapped between the sealing shoulder and the taped threads.
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Post by 12ptdroptine on May 1, 2015 20:58:42 GMT -5
That gun's got a ghost
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Post by eml9 on May 1, 2015 21:03:05 GMT -5
Savaged plug. That's what i was thinking . it was enough gas to "fiz" for a good 30 seconds. I waited til it stopped to unscrew the plug and it still popped .weird.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 21:45:06 GMT -5
Have had it happen on different guns before, never figured out the cause.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 22:06:06 GMT -5
Have had it happen on different guns before, never figured out the cause. Just a guess but Jeff Hankins has told me about the plug and barrel stretching that takes place upon ignition,maybe the plug moves rearward instantaneously upon ignition ,then lets in air behind sealing face then seals back and the air/pressure is trapped between the taped threads and the breach plug snout......This is the first that anyone has posted this issue that I've seen.... |
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Post by edge on May 2, 2015 6:45:46 GMT -5
Just a guess but Jeff Hankins has told me about the plug and barrel stretching that takes place upon ignition,maybe the plug moves rearward instantaneously upon ignition ,then lets in air behind sealing face then seals back and the air/pressure is trapped between the taped threads and the breach plug snout......This is the first that anyone has posted this issue that I've seen.... That would make perfect sense especially with the tape all the way to the snout, which I would not tape as it may allow gas cutting. Breechplug threads can only hold back the original preload and then the BP moves. If you have a 45 caliber barrel and your max pressure is 50kpsi then the BP will see about 8,000 pounds of pressure. Depending on your BP threads you would need to preload the BP to exceed that force or the BP will move off of the barrel threads at max pressure...momentarily. If you want to calculate that preload torque use can use this calculator: www.engineersedge.com/calculators/torque_calc.htm( a torque reading can easily be off by 30% for precision engineers use bolt stretch instead of torque wrench readings ) edge. PS a lubed Savage plug you would input 0.687 for the Major Diameter, 0.16 for the lubed Coef friction, and 8,000 for the clamp force and then hit Find Torque button. The answer there is 880 in pounds or about 70 ft/lbs Unless a gunsmith attached your barrel you most likely will unscrew the barrel from the action with that much torque So the BP/Barrel will separate momentarily. |
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Post by eml9 on May 2, 2015 17:13:47 GMT -5
Well I'm guessing it was because I wrapped tape all the way to the shoulder. Not doing that again . I couldn't see any gas cutting but it was hard to see since it was "smoked up" from the tape burning . I will clan it this weekend and take a good look at everything . edge , so basically your saying the breech wasn't torqued down tight enough for the powder charge I was shooting ?
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Post by edge on May 3, 2015 3:29:33 GMT -5
SNIP. edge , so basically your saying the breech wasn't torqued down tight enough for the powder charge I was shooting ? Actually you can't torque it tight enough! I think a Remington is torqued to 100 ft/lbs but not really sure. Even if your barrel were torqued that tight you can't get 70 ft/lbs by hand...you would need the action in a vise and a large wrench. The momentary separation is all part of the system, even a centerfire stretches when you shoot it! Hand tight and then goose it is generally what I do and have yet to have any problems edge. |
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Post by eml9 on May 3, 2015 6:24:21 GMT -5
Okay, thanks for all the crazy calculations. Helpful info . well im hoping it doesn't happen again ... I was hesitant to even shoot it, as mentioned before never read anyone's post having this issue before. Is this something that could cause gas cutting ?or is it more of just a low psi leak?
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Post by jims on May 3, 2015 8:03:44 GMT -5
Edge: Along with this noise question can you give us more details on the process where gas cutting can occur more readily if the tape extends further and why.
I have to admit I was going to go that route and glad I have not. Thanks
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Post by edge on May 3, 2015 9:40:14 GMT -5
IMO, some part of the tape will almost always burn or get blown away leaving a gap ( like a vent liner ) and that will make an easy outlet for higher pressure gasses that will erode the barrel and or BP. While the snout of the BP is not perfect it is over a very large area and the larger the area the less wear you get in any one spot. If you start with a 0.030 mild steel vent liner it will wear very fast, but at some point it get large enough in diameter that it will probably ALMOST stop...how large that is I don't know A few years ago a member suggested a piece of flash paper over a larger vent as a way to use smaller gained powders. I don't know if anyone ever tried it. Perhaps using flash paper for you pre measured loads would solve two problems, but I think you would need a primer that is fully enclosed or it will certainly leak or burst if you tried a 209. edge. |
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Post by edge on May 3, 2015 12:06:08 GMT -5
ON THE OTHER HAND Lets say the tape gets jammed BETWEEN the headspace shoulder on the Savage plug and the bore. Perhaps that could form an effective seal almost like the obturator on a de Bange Breech...I must say I have never considered that before! edge. |
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Post by rangeball on May 3, 2015 16:35:31 GMT -5
ON THE OTHER HAND Lets say the tape gets jammed BETWEEN the headspace shoulder on the Savage plug and the bore. Perhaps that could form an effective seal almost like the obturator on a de Bange Breech...I must say I have never considered that before! edge. The tape would seal when everything expands? How many shots would it last? We need a tester |
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Post by edge on May 3, 2015 16:50:22 GMT -5
Ask de Bange or perhaps Rossman If you plug it up completely then in theory there would be no wear, or so little that it would not matter as you would pull the plug at some interval. I rarely pull mine, but I think others like Richard pull theirs after every session...the plug that is edge. |
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 17:59:19 GMT -5
With advent of the 99.95 % tungsten bushing...maybe a semi permanent installed plug be installed in the barrel torqued to 100 lbs before barrei install...
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Post by 12ptdroptine on May 3, 2015 18:46:54 GMT -5
Now we have to be concerned about "PlugFarts"....
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Post by eml9 on May 3, 2015 19:38:00 GMT -5
Edge ,do you think this happened because I applied Teflon all the way to the shoulder or is this something that rarely happens with savage plug?Never happened until I did wrap it all the way to the shoulder ..?
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Post by edge on May 4, 2015 5:13:04 GMT -5
Edge ,do you think this happened because I applied Teflon all the way to the shoulder or is this something that rarely happens with savage plug?Never happened until I did wrap it all the way to the shoulder ..? It is almost certainly the cause. Every BP is subject to the same forces. Your tape effectively trapped the gas in the unthreaded section on the Savage plug.The gas seeped in and had no place to go once the barrel pressure subsided. edge. |
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Post by cowhunter on May 4, 2015 12:36:31 GMT -5
You could shorten your ignition fuse -- you know, that fuse you stick in the hole on the side of your barrel that burns down to the powder chamber. I think a guy from France sold the patent to Fishhawk.
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Post by al53 on May 5, 2015 10:14:12 GMT -5
since I am new to the SML world I have a few question pertaining to the plug...the fizzing part caught my eye and wanted info just incase it ever happens to me...
is best to tourque the plug or just use arm torque to tighten it..
is tape better than say the silver or nickle anti seize..both are for extreme heat and pressure and stops galling...with the pressure on the plug during ignition will the tape wear in the threads from the slight movement..
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Post by edge on May 5, 2015 10:48:07 GMT -5
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Post by eml9 on May 5, 2015 10:50:26 GMT -5
Tape seems to be the way to go iv found ..I always used never seize with my black powder gun but it is messy as you probably no. . The tape does seem to blow /burn the first few threads back from the shoulder (savage plug). As far as the fizzing edge stated it was Because i taped all the way to the shoulder on the savage plug . I'm not going to do that anymore . i torque the breech with a socket while holding the gun in my hand and that's it .that is plenty and all I have ever done in any muzzleloader iv ever shot and had no issues
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Post by rossman40 on May 8, 2015 15:47:39 GMT -5
You probly just got gas trapped in the wraps of the tape. You have to remember the teflon tape was designed for taper pipe threads where it is more of a non-stick "packing" then a sealer. Hot gas will turn it to toast pretty fast since it melts at about 600°. If you would have fired it a few more times you might of "packed" the tape a bit more and the "farting" may have lessened. In the artillery guns that do not use a case use the De Bange obturator system with a Welin style breech.   The pad is made by a mix of asbestos, graphite and a little rubber reinforced with some metal and a woven wire mesh. As the chamber pressure forces against the mushroom head (spindle) it swells the pad to seal. Never seen one wear out due to firing, more like being taken apart all the time for cleaning. You may think it's just artillery, low pressure. But modern artillery pieces have full charge chamber pressures over 60ksi. To build something like that in a Savage style plug would be a bit expensive and a lot of added maintenance. |
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Post by Richard on May 8, 2015 19:18:57 GMT -5
Yes Edge...........but it takes a two handed grip to pull that plug!
Richard
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Post by al53 on May 8, 2015 19:28:38 GMT -5
I dont know if it makes a difference but they make a teflon tape thats nickle also for hight temps and pressures...it is thick and it is gray...the yellow is for gas lines and not high heat...or pressures ..so maybe the tape you have is reacting to the heat and pressure and gassing off some ...it could be that brand...
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 20:38:09 GMT -5
I dont know if it makes a difference but they make a teflon tape thats nickle also for hight temps and pressures...it is thick and it is gray...the yellow is for gas lines and not high heat...or pressures ..so maybe the tape you have is reacting to the heat and pressure and gassing off some ...it could be that brand... I'll try and locate some....The white tape I am using seems a little thin as I am putting 2 two 3 wraps on threaded portion of bp...... |
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