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Post by smalljawbasser on Apr 24, 2015 15:06:50 GMT -5
I have read most all of Richard and TGinPA's fine work (at least what has been pinned in the load and pressure trace threads), so this is not a question about what load you think will work in my rifle. rather, this is a question about the process I should use to find that right load for myself.
I have a process for CF. but at no point to i have to worry about sizing my bullets, veggie/wool, etc. In CF, I worry about charge weight, powder choice, and seating depth and go from there. maybe a little neck tension tweak here or there, but that's basically it. but this whole SML thing has all kinds of new variables!
Anyway, would anybody care to share their specific steps to finding the best load for their own unique rifles?
In what order should one experiment with charge weight, powder type, seating pressure, loading pressure, wad material, duplex, etc?
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Post by rambler on Apr 24, 2015 15:59:29 GMT -5
You've already done the first step by reading the loads and pressure threads. Bolt guns can handle more pressure than break opens. The rest is just what you have been doing, researching via this message board, asking questions and determining what has worked for others then apply that to whatever kind of build you end up with.
Putting the horse in front of the cart, once you get a smokeless gun then based on what you have the experimenting begins. There are guidelines but you have to be gun specific.
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Post by smalljawbasser on Apr 24, 2015 20:59:14 GMT -5
I guess that would help!
RemPac .45, savage plug, #7 contour barrel, bought from onecardchuck. Hankins has my drop on the way to him to make me a die.
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Post by rambler on Apr 24, 2015 22:07:42 GMT -5
I'd be askin onecardchuck what he was shooting and go from there.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 22:10:18 GMT -5
Shooting Ladders has been brought up by 7MMFreak as a technique to find the sweet spot...shooting groups starting low and progressing up a grain at a time and see what load produces the tightess group....That's my understanding of it,but sizing,bullet compositionand weight ,ignition,different burn rate powders ,barrel length,..etc. are variables in SML....
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Post by smalljawbasser on Apr 24, 2015 22:38:43 GMT -5
I guess I'm not making myself clear, let me try again.
Im not asking for help finding a load for my rifle. I'm wanting to know what actual process YOU go through to sort through all the potential variables to settle on THE BEST load combo for a new rifle.
For instance, in cf bench rifles, you pretty much know what powder and a general charge to start with. I generally seat to jam .010 and load one cartridge (starting at book or other known safe charge) and increase 5% charge weight up to a stout load, and shoot them in order from low to high until I start seeing pressure signs to find max safe charge in a given rifle/case/powder/bullet.
Once I know that, I load 3 each (still jammed .010) from max charge down to about 10% or so below max. Then you go shoot some type of ladder or OCW test to determine one or more accuracy nodes. You might further tweak those charges based on what you found the first time and shoot a second ladder/OCW/ES/etc
Ok, so now you have your best charge. Verticle is now as good as it can get, and it's time to work on horizontal. Which means you try some different seating depths.
Then you might tweak neck tension,etc etc ad naseum.
BUT with SML, I've got other variables to consider, and obviously some variables I don't (neck tension, seating depth)...
My question is, how do YOU test these SML specific variables to determine best possible accuracy? Find charge weight, then try sizing for different loading pressure? Trying a different wad/no wad?
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Post by 7mmfreak on Apr 25, 2015 6:17:36 GMT -5
Assuming we are talking sabotless, I use a modified Audette method:
1. Pick your bullet, powder, and primer. I use Fed209 because they are hot.
2. Set your die (on a dirty barrel) to the max seating resistance you can handle repeatedly. You are about to work up pressure and it is safe to go from tight fit to looser fit but not the opposite. Size enough to shoot a ladder test: ten to fifteen is plenty and past that recoil is counterproductive for me. You can do it as an OCW but will need more bullets per range session. record your die setting and don't use a tighter fit bullet, EVER
3. Measure your charges based on educated guess referenced against traced data. I usually shoot a 5gn ladder in .5gn increments for the first ladder although you could shoot a larger window. If you only have a short range (100m) you probably should try an OCW version instead of a Ladder. Shoot until you find pressure signs or approach traced MV, THEN STOP, write down that charge and don't surpass it, EVER
I shoot my ladders at 300yrs, find nodes, then refine ladder charges, and re-shoot until I settle on THE charge.
4. Now that I know the MAX charge and THE charge I will mess with seating resistance. Small adjustments go a long way. I shoot 3 shot groups for up to 5 adjustments since 15 shots is my self imposed limit. One or two will be better than the rest and I will validate them by shooting three, five-shot groups. Write down THE die setting.
5. You can, optionally, after finding THE die setting test small (.1-.2gn) adjustments to your charge weight and try shooting with wads. I have never shot smooth formed bullets and have not found wads to help in my FF guns.
Ladder testing is less consumptive than OCW and will beat you less in a given range session. Your range limitations determine which is the best method for you. I'll post this process as I continue to make and test bullets.
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Post by jims on Apr 25, 2015 7:24:25 GMT -5
As mentioned recoil can really become a factor with multiple bench shots. You see a number of lead sled etc. devises used and more brakes going on with the repetitive shoots. As you well know hard to get good results if a flinch is introduced into the equation.
Some of the pressure signs of centerfire are missing in muzzleloading so precede cautiously.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 8:36:10 GMT -5
I guess I'm not making myself clear, let me try again. Im not asking for help finding a load for my rifle. I'm wanting to know what actual process YOU go through to sort through all the potential variables to settle on THE BEST load combo for a new rifle. For instance, in cf bench rifles, you pretty much know what powder and a general charge to start with. I generally seat to jam .010 and load one cartridge (starting at book or other known safe charge) and increase 5% charge weight up to a stout load, and shoot them in order from low to high until I start seeing pressure signs to find max safe charge in a given rifle/case/powder/bullet. Once I know that, I load 3 each (still jammed .010) from max charge down to about 10% or so below max. Then you go shoot some type of ladder or OCW test to determine one or more accuracy nodes. You might further tweak those charges based on what you found the first time and shoot a second ladder/OCW/ES/etc Ok, so now you have your best charge. Verticle is now as good as it can get, and it's time to work on horizontal. Which means you try some different seating depths. Then you might tweak neck tension,etc etc ad naseum. BUT with SML, I've got other variables to consider, and obviously some variables I don't (neck tension, seating depth)... My question is, how do YOU test these SML specific variables to determine best possible accuracy? Find charge weight, then try sizing for different loading pressure? Trying a different wad/no wad? There are so many powder combinations that can be tried and one load might work best in one gun while it might not be in another....You might settle on a great load until someone here tries something else and it works out better than what you have....in other words its a never ending story....from different ignition,breechplugs,prime flame channel volume,vent size,powder column height,bullet sizing,bullet weight and as Bestill brought up , in his matches he uses different bullet for different ranges..... |
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Post by Dave W on Apr 25, 2015 12:55:53 GMT -5
For my .442, I took a load that shot well in my .45 and adjusted the sizing die until things tightened up. Once the sizing niche was found, everything that shot well in my .45, shoots as well or better in the .442. Sizing may be the most critical variable, but with the newer .040 bushing there was a trace that showed very little difference velocity based on seating resistance. Lot of variables involved with this stuff too. I shoot 2 shot groups at 200yds, if two are tight then I fire a third. I work in one grain increments, .5 increments has rarely shown any accuracy gain. If I find something it likes, I will test it again to see if it is repeatable, and then again. Then I will alter the charge in smaller increments. Old article, think it was in Precision Shooting, the authors theory was the larger the bore, the less prone it is to show accuracy differences in charge weight. Your mileage may vary.  |
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Post by smalljawbasser on Apr 28, 2015 14:24:19 GMT -5
Assuming we are talking sabotless, I use a modified Audette method: Shoot until you find pressure signs or approach traced MV, THEN STOP, write down that charge and don't surpass it, EVERyour process makes perfect sense. but i have one question, that i have to ask. i know what pressure signs are in the CF world, and i'm comfortable working up to them. but how does increasing pressure manifest itself in the SML? blowback? fired primer changes? |
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Post by zalexander on Apr 28, 2015 15:51:31 GMT -5
Assuming we are talking sabotless, I use a modified Audette method: Shoot until you find pressure signs or approach traced MV, THEN STOP, write down that charge and don't surpass it, EVERyour process makes perfect sense. but i have one question, that i have to ask. i know what pressure signs are in the CF world, and i'm comfortable working up to them. but how does increasing pressure manifest itself in the SML? blowback? fired primer changes? I have often wondered the exact same thing. How do you know when pressure is getting high? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 16:29:18 GMT -5
There is a ton of pressure traces on here to assist you with load development and to keep your pressure at a reasonable level.
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Post by jsthntn247 on Apr 28, 2015 16:38:07 GMT -5
Centerfire loading for 1000 yard matches I start by shooting a ladder test at a 400 yard minimum to find a node range and test for pressure. Then I OCW test a range of loads that looked good on the ladder test in 1% powder increments. Then I play with seating depth at my OCW charge, then finally neck tension and primers. Thanks to the folks on this board and all the load work they have posted and pressure traces you already should have a good idea on where you are going to end up with your powder charge. It seemed most folks ended up around 70 grains with the same powder and bullet combo I wanted to shoot. So I started at 68 grains and worked up in .7gr (1%) increments up to 71.5 with two shots at each powder charge. 68.7, 69.4, and 70.1 all shot very good groups (69.4 was 3/8th moa) at the same poi of the target so I considered 69.4 my OCW load. I could have then played with the bullet seating pressure on the swing lock and primers to finalize my load but saw no need to since I was under 1/2 moa already. I then verified the load out to 500 yards and it was still shooting 1/2 moa for 3 shots. I found it easier to work up a load for my smokeless muzzleloader than any centerfire I 've ever tried.
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Post by 7mmfreak on Apr 28, 2015 19:42:59 GMT -5
your process makes perfect sense. but i have one question, that i have to ask. i know what pressure signs are in the CF world, and i'm comfortable working up to them. but how does increasing pressure manifest itself in the SML? blowback? fired primer changes? I don't think you necessarily will see traditional metallic pressure signs. It is similar in that you are establishing a max pressure for your system vice meeting a max pressure as one might if we were comparing against SAAMI for metallics. In my case, when my NULA hits max for it's breach system the extractor will slip the primer lip. My Rem700ML conversion will bulge primers and that makes removing them from the Hunter bolt nose impossible without an improvised tool. I would assume that the next thing that would happen is primer failure as it is obviously unsupported even if just a little bit. I worked for a large shooting complex for about 8 years in the gunsmith shop and at one point I had a good friend suffer an eye injury from a case failure. I will not place myself in that position with anything by trying to get too much; whether it is one too many firings on a case, 50fps more in MV, etc. There are things in shooting I do to get "more", like coating with hBN but I won't run guns or component ragged trying to ilk out the "most". Assuming you don't see symptoms of overpressure in your breach system then I stop when I realize velocities that are closing in against those in the traced data available on this board. I feel like that is the most logical way to say you at about xx,000 psi with your load. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 20:26:54 GMT -5
There is a ton of pressure traces on here to assist you with load development and to keep your pressure at a reasonable level. +1 TG has done a lot of testing different powder /bullet combos ,duplexs,and more......This board would not be what it is without his work IMO..... |
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Post by Richard on Apr 28, 2015 20:39:43 GMT -5
smalljaw................Welcome to the wonderful world of smoke less muzzle loading! Like you, I am/was benchrest oriented. I got Poo Poo'ed for a lot of stuff I was trying to integrate into this discipline. I shot for eight years in the 1K IBS game here in NC but have migrated to the Piedmont Club and now solely shoot the 600 yard matches. I know the feeling of being comfortable with CF loading and testing and this smokeless stuff along with Dave's old duplex loads really got me nervous. However, after almost eight years now, I feel comfortable playing with many different powders, loads, both single, duplex and yes, triplex loads. Right now, I feel staying within around 70 to 75 gr. TOTAL weight........being single powder or duplex, is where most should be until such time as you really get into the game and have the right equipment to handle loads the Earnhardt and a few others shoot.
A good general duplex load would be in the 10/60 range. For me, mostly Clays or Red Dot as my booster and H-4198 as my main charge. With this load, I can shoot any bullets from 200 to 300 grains and know I am safe as I have shot so many of them. I tweak with different bullets by maybe dropping the booster by a grain or two or five and then maybe raising the main charge up a few grains. Understand that the booster powders, no matter which you use including even others like N-110, 4759 and 5744 are more volatile and "boost" pressure quicker than the slower main charges.........like the 4198, 322 and 2015 to name a few. So, you could drop the Clays to 9 gr. but raise the 4198 to say.......62 gr. or raise the Clays to 11 gr. but drop the 4198 to maybe 58? In most cases, I have stayed with 5 to 10 gr. of Clays as the booster.
An then I just shoot a lot and see what works. Chances are if you can get a good load to shoot generic bullets (Hornady, Sierra etc, the premium bullets will shoot even better with the same load................Not all the time but generally.
The more bench time you spend, the more familiar you get with loads.
Richard
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 20:48:08 GMT -5
keep in mind that your shoulder might well say back off before the traces or the gun does.
example #1. this is my go to test load for most guns I build whether it be a full fledged 400 yd deer stomper or a 100 yd woods gun
70 grns H-4198 300 Parker BE or match hunter smooth sized on a .060 veggie or dry wool wad or Lukes 310 full formed with no wad. these loads have proven very accurate in almost every gun I have tried them in. I didn't say they are pleasant to shoot because my shoulder says otherwise. I think this is toward the upper end of what is both safe and reasonable load in a .45 cal barrel.
example #2. for saboted loads in the .45 barrel my go to load is 60 grns H-4198 with a 200 sst and harvester light blue sabot, almost always very accurate in most barrels. I have shot 10 shot groups in less than 1" with this load, with cooling time of course.
All you have to do is ask and these guys will tell you what you need to know to keep you from wasting powder and time..
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Post by smalljawbasser on Apr 29, 2015 15:15:17 GMT -5
what a great resource and helpful bunch of folks. thanks to all.
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Post by rangeball on Apr 29, 2015 15:48:05 GMT -5
Bill, do you see any accuracy difference with FF when using a wad? I've always used a wad with the 310gr FF, I guess mostly because I had them and figured they couldn't hurt, but am curious if you've seen any difference with and without them?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2015 12:31:55 GMT -5
Bill, do you see any accuracy difference with FF when using a wad? I've always used a wad with the 310gr FF, I guess mostly because I had them and figured they couldn't hurt, but am curious if you've seen any difference with and without them? Not that it exactly pertains to your question, but it's on topic. Both my Pacnor 392/400 ff guns shot better groups with wool wads vs. Without, I know every gun, setup and situation can vary, but in my case I found better accuracy with the wads. |
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Post by rangeball on Apr 30, 2015 14:15:21 GMT -5
Thanks Guy.
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