|
|
Post by smalljawbasser on Apr 21, 2015 8:58:23 GMT -5
before i even get comfortable with my new to me .45 rempac, it already occurs to me that a subcaliber (.40, .375, .338) sounds fun. all i really need to do is ventilate deer, usually from a treestand, and have fun tinkering with a project. i'm relatively new to SML, but like a lot of you i've shot and reloaded quite a bit.
lighter bullets, lighter recoil, maybe different powders that i already shoot CF?
anyway, i really just wanted to post a conversation starter for folks to chime in with why they like or don't like "sub-caliber" SML's.
|
|
|
|
Post by rangeball on Apr 21, 2015 9:30:47 GMT -5
Seems to me the guys going smaller than .40 are really pushing the envelope looking for long range performance. Most are braked so I wouldn't expect a recoil reduction alone from the smaller caliber. If your state allows you can shoot .40 saboted from your .45 and get the recoil down to almost nothing and still be plenty adequate to poke holes in deer out to 200yds or so. Not much more recoil and this can be pushed to 300 yds easily. Personally I see no reason for the smaller calibers unless really long range is your goal. Or you want an excuse to have more guns. NTTAWWT  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 21:33:37 GMT -5
IMO, if you're primarily deer hunting and especially out of a stand, build a 40 cal and never look back. Less recoil for sure, and you can push the 195 Barnes, 200 SST or 240 CEB plenty hard and forget about sabots! 40 cals are pleasant to shoot vs. a .45 or .50 and the key thing is, no sabots involved. The only draw back is there is not a big of a selection of bullets as for the others. That said, there are plenty of good bullets for hunting or if you want no recoil, drop down to a 150gr or 180gr for plinking or shorter range hunting, there are quite a few powders that work well in the 40's as well. To me, and this is my opinion, for a hunting gun, say out to 300 yards, a 40 is hard to beat. JMO
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 21:36:04 GMT -5
I think a 35 apex build would be pretty neat and handy. Load it to whatever your comfort level tells you, you don't have to get beat up to have fun!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 21:38:20 GMT -5
I think a 35 apex build would be pretty neat and handy. Load it to whatever your comfort level tells you, you don't have to get beat up to have fun! very funny Bob, you just had to say it didn't ya?  ..... |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 22:01:02 GMT -5
I was hoping that someone would start pouring the coals to their .40 or .375...  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2015 22:20:35 GMT -5
I was hoping that someone would start pouring the coals to their .40 or .375... Coals in the 40 are coming.... |
|
|
|
Post by markb317 on Apr 21, 2015 22:54:13 GMT -5
I was hoping that someone would start pouring the coals to their .40 or .375... I waiting to see some higher B.C. bullets up in the 3000ft/sec range. The .375 has some nice heavy high B.C. bullets to use. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2015 17:11:25 GMT -5
I was hoping that someone would start pouring the coals to their .40 or .375... I waiting to see some higher B.C. bullets up in the 3000ft/sec range. The .375 has some nice heavy high B.C. bullets to use. x 2... We will all benefit from the high BC, high velocity data from the smaller calibers. My overall knowledge of SMLs benefitted greatly from the .416 shooting I've done. Bushings, PFCs, powders, and pressures...you name it. FOR ME, the 416 taught me a lot about what I can do with the .45s I am assuming we will see the same revelations with the smaller calibers as well. From what I've seen with my 416s, I think we will see better results with the jacketed bullets in the sub-calibers than we will with solids. Richard mentioned how well the flat base bullets shoot in the 600/100 yard guns, I know they shoot great in the 416 as well. So here's my 2 cents on the "sub-calibers"...flat based Match Hunter or thin jacketed bullets will start you out on the right path. But I think you're going to have to get a run of 600 custom .375 or .40 Match Hunter bullets at a minimum to start experimenting. I'll be honest with you I really want to try the .375 with a ~ 275-300 grain Match Hunter with a BE thickness jacket (.015"), and a flat base. It sounds like fun! |
|
|
|
Post by fishhawk on Apr 22, 2015 17:15:42 GMT -5
I was hoping that someone would start pouring the coals to their .40 or .375... As soon as I get my breechplug made and chambered, I will be some 350gr SMK's through my .375. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2015 18:02:58 GMT -5
My 375 will be rolling soon. I have quite a few bullets to try in it, I'm excited to see how it works out, and I plan on getting the speeds up there, although to many's dissapointment, my 375 is geared for 300 grain bullets and under, but geared to push them hard. Same goes for the 40 cal Axis, it is purpose built to push the envelope in the 40 cal world. We will soon see how it all works out.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jon on Apr 22, 2015 18:10:03 GMT -5
I know it isn't of much interest to most but I'm having a 6.5 put together. I have a destroyed collarbone and am looking for light recoil gun to have fun with and not have to use a sled or dangerous rest just to shoot. But I have to admit 'm in new and muddy waters. I'm disable and not able to hunt so I'm limited to bench shooting any way.
|
|
|
|
Post by rob67 on Apr 22, 2015 18:25:40 GMT -5
IMO, if you're primarily deer hunting and especially out of a stand, build a 40 cal and never look back. Less recoil for sure, and you can push the 195 Barnes, 200 SST or 240 CEB plenty hard and forget about sabots! 40 cals are pleasant to shoot vs. a .45 or .50 and the key thing is, no sabots involved. The only draw back is there is not a big of a selection of bullets as for the others. That said, there are plenty of good bullets for hunting or if you want no recoil, drop down to a 150gr or 180gr for plinking or shorter range hunting, there are quite a few powders that work well in the 40's as well. To me, and this is my opinion, for a hunting gun, say out to 300 yards, a 40 is hard to beat. JMO Yes what Guy said. The .40 or the .10mm is the most accurate and the most pleasure recoil wise I own. I think there will be some better bc bullets in the near future. With the .375 there is a great bullet selection, but there is some issues with pressure rising very quickly. A couple of grains of powder makes a big difference in pressure. |
|
|
|
Post by smalljawbasser on Apr 22, 2015 22:19:22 GMT -5
Very interesting responses.
Curious about why pressures would rise faster in a .375?
I also agree, the subs make a lot of sense to this deer hunter. But I'm totally naive about the SML.
are heavier projectiles needed to create back pressure since there is no case involved?
|
|
|
|
Post by hayman on Apr 23, 2015 8:27:20 GMT -5
I am with Ohioguy my plans are to shoot the 250-300 gr bullets around 2800+ I hope....
|
|
|
|
Post by timgunner on May 17, 2015 7:25:31 GMT -5
Are any of you guys running a powder chamber in your .375s? I'm seriously considering putting together a .338. I Have a spare .338 barrel blank in my shop laying next to a 700ml receiver that is really tempting me. I am curious about cutting a powder chamber seeing as the .338 bore doesn't leave much room for powder. There doesn't seem to be much info out there about this. Do you guys have any experience or know where I should look for advice?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 17, 2015 9:08:24 GMT -5
I think a .338 will absolutely need a powder chamber, your powder column will be exceedingly long. Powder chambers are very easy to install alongside the arrowhead plug, just drill and ream deeper to start with. If you need help deciding how large your chamber needs to be if be happy to supply some quickloads info.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 17, 2015 9:55:33 GMT -5
If you are going to put a powder chamber in the barrel, start out small and work your way up in diameter.
If I was you I'd start out at .400-.425".
If it works out good and you want to open it up at a later date, you have that option.
If you make the diameter too big, and you have ignition problems, you are screwed and will HAVE to use a booster.
When it comes to how large of a capacity the powder chamber will have, make it only as big as the SMALLEST powder charge you ever think you will use in it.
ie. if you think that one of your loads might have a 225 grain bullet with a 80 grain powder charge, make sure the capacity of the powder chamber does not exceed 80 grains.
You are going to have to use a rear sealing breech plug. Whether it's a LRM or a 209 primer system.
If you are going to use a LRM ignition you will end up using a powder type that is an avg. of 2 powder types faster, per brand, to get the same velocities and pressures as a 209M ignition system.
ie. if you use Hodgdon Retumbo in a 209M gun, you will need to use Hodgdon H4831 in a LRM gun, to get the same velocities. Due to the lack of pressure that is created in the LRM guns.
READ THIS CAREFULLY!
On this board you NEED to pay attention to the problems that guys are having with their load developments and their SML builds. Especially with experimental guns like you are looking into.
Whether it pressure signs, ignition problems or low velocities.
A guy like Richard will tell you with brutal honesty, if something doesn't work or if it does.
I can tell you everything that went wrong with my .416's, Cole and a few others can tell you of the things that didn't work with their .375's and .40's. But these guns are in their early stages.
But if you are jumping into the .338, I am watching with great interest. Take baby steps...
You can learn from other guys' experiences both good and bad on this board.
And BEWARE of the used car salesman that only points out the positives, and none of the negatives.
How many times have we been told by a used car salesman to check out the new tires, windshield wipers and pinstripes, when you can smell burnt anti-freeze coming out of the exhaust, indicating a blown head gasket?...
Good Luck and please keep us posted!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 17, 2015 10:12:41 GMT -5
Currently I wouldn't build one thinking I was going to reach lapua mag velocities but in the near future I will be able to tell you if we have rectified the primer damage issue.
|
|
|
|
Post by longbowshtr on May 17, 2015 15:51:43 GMT -5
Question about the 40's. Would you build a .392-.400 or .400-408? What twist rate? I am mainly looking to shoot 195 barnes.
Thanks
Benny
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 17, 2015 18:12:19 GMT -5
392/400 16" twist would be my first choice, but I have yet to shoot my 400/408 or the polygonal twist 392/400, so my opinion could very well change in the future.
The 392/400 in 16" twist is a proven shooter and I really like it, so it would be a no brainer for me for a first 40 build. JMO
|
|
|
|
Post by timgunner on May 18, 2015 7:34:30 GMT -5
Thanks for the responses Myers and Earnhardt. I'm planning on using Luke's arrowhead breech plug with .030 tungsten bushing and a .209 hunter bolt conversion. I was hoping to meet or even exceed Lapua velocities but was not aware that there were known problems with primers when attempting that. What seems to be the threshold before running into problems? I've got a .338 win mag that performs well with 225 sst's and hybrid 100v. I'm getting 2950fps with extreme spreads of less than 10. I am really hoping that I'll be able to duplicate at least this kind of performance... I was thinking about starting with a good middle of the road .338 win mag load and working the powder chamber off of that volume. I've never used quickloads but that might be a huge help as things will be very different considering just the difference between lrm and 209 primers. I'm wanting to try bullets in the 225, 250 & 285gr weight class. I Would really really appreciate some quickloads data on these at least to establish some safe boundaries before starting.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 19, 2015 21:58:05 GMT -5
Thanks for the responses Myers and Earnhardt. I'm planning on using Luke's arrowhead breech plug with .030 tungsten bushing and a .209 hunter bolt conversion. I was hoping to meet or even exceed Lapua velocities but was not aware that there were known problems with primers when attempting that. What seems to be the threshold before running into problems? I've got a .338 win mag that performs well with 225 sst's and hybrid 100v. I'm getting 2950fps with extreme spreads of less than 10. I am really hoping that I'll be able to duplicate at least this kind of performance... I was thinking about starting with a good middle of the road .338 win mag load and working the powder chamber off of that volume. I've never used quickloads but that might be a huge help as things will be very different considering just the difference between lrm and 209 primers. I'm wanting to try bullets in the 225, 250 & 285gr weight class. I Would really really appreciate some quickloads data on these at least to establish some safe boundaries before starting. IMO, by my calculations you would have to go to a much slower powder than 100V to get to where you want to be velocity wise and maintain a safe pressure range in a 338. I don't want to list specifics because it is just my calculations and I'm no quickloads expert, but with what I come up with, running a 225 SST with 100V and trying to get 2900 fps+, the pressures are way higher than I would feel safe attempting. You may have to consider dropping down to RL-22 or even slower powders to get near what your looking for. As someone stated before in another thread, the smaller the bore you go, it seems the pressures get up there and small changes make big differences. Again, just my figures (right or wrong) and JMO. Be careful and good luck. |
|
|
|
Post by jims on May 20, 2015 6:41:20 GMT -5
As mentioned there is less real world information on the newer, smaller caliber SMLs but they are much more touchy as regards small variations in powder and types IMO. Hard on primers, vent liners etc. Tread carefully and slowly.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 7:24:48 GMT -5
Your best bet is to buy a Quickload program for $153.
In the long run it will save you a pile of money, keeping you from wasting bullets, powder and especially time.
If it was my project I'd start with 3 bushing sizes to see which one gives you the best results. .030", .033" and .035"
That way you can fine tune loads, velocities and ignition. And then ultimately figure out which one is the bushing you will stick with.
Quickloads will open you eyes as to what is feasible, and what is dangerous.
Blindly throwing a load together that QL says is 65-70 kpsi, and calling it "good". Is not only dangerous, it's not very smart.
I've seen it on this board where guys are shooting loads that QL says is 65 kpsi+, but not telling others on the board that fact. Stating "it's safe" in their gun, or it's "proof testing"...
Don't be that guy...
|
|
..... 
