Billy goat Gruff...the rest of the story

[airborneike]

After reading 7mmfreak’s excellent report on “Billy goat Gruff” I thought it might be interesting to explore the “other side of the story”

You are considering having a custom build and have contacted some custom gunsmiths trying to fathom who to do the build. All the information gathering you are getting is very one sided because you are only thinking about what you want.

Believe me when I say that the information gathering is two sided because a good custom smith who has been around for some time and has been successful is evaluating you as a customer. Just as sure as there are talented Smiths, there are also problem customers. It is a small world in the custom rifle business and word get around pretty quick in regards to quality…and…customers who can’t be pleased no matter what the smith does.

This is not to imply that one should accept less than quality work, just that the level of quality should be agreed on before the work is done so that it is clear what the finished product should be.
Smiths are human too and make mistakes, get in a hurry and sometimes miss things but the good ones will correct those problems in a timely manner just as Jeff did for Keith.

I have been in this business for a lot of years with Davis Custom Rifles and our rifles have set or hold over 27 IBS, NBRSA and other records. Bear with me please while I relate a case in point about a problem customer.

A gentleman came to us for a first custom build so he could get into benchrest competition. No names but the rifle was made by us and Richard Franklin did the stockwork. This rifle was expensive with the best custom parts available and chambered in 6BRX. He was advised about loads that usually worked in that particular caliber but did not listen.

From the beginning he complained that the rifle would not shoot so the machine work had to be inferior and he wanted his money back and that he would keep the rifle as well. Meanwhile he was doing the same with Richard Franklin saying that the stock was trash and was keeping the rifle from shooting…wanted his money back and keep the stock.

Every attempt was made to rectify the situation but he continued to “badmouth” the product until some of the people where he shot took him aside and tried to explain the nuances of benchrest loading and shooting techniques. Once he had the proper load and “table” manners, things began to change and he won two matches and subsequently set an F class record…all with the rifle that was “trash”.

That same gentleman now will be hard pressed to find a smith who will work for him…word gets around. He will be greeted with “we are booked up” or an estimate that that will make him grab his wallet and scream. We did get a belated apology.

As said before, this is not to say that shoddy work should be accepted, just be clear before the work is done as to what level of quality you expect. Smiths are human too and most do their absolute best within their capabilities to satisfy their customers.

Flame suit on!!! :-)

Mike

[Deleted]

Thanks for the warning Ike! I'll steer clear of doing work for Keith (darn troublemaker) hahaha, just messing I know that's not the moral of the story.

[Deleted]

Not sure I completely follow the jist of where you're going with this thread, nor can I say I completely agree with it all, but we will just leave it at that. It could get real deep, real fast.

[Richard]

Good post Mike. When we put a gun together for someone that little is known about, we don't really know that persons ability to shoot the guns accurately. I got a barrel from Luke that a customer said would not shoot. Luke advised me of such and said he pushed bullets and sabots down the barrel and it seemed OK to him. Luke was willing to sell it to me for a reduced price. I agreed providing when I got it, and checked it along with my bore scope I was satisfied. I put the gun together and it shot just as good as any of the many barrels I have installed. Fact was, the shooter apparently could not shoot or just did not know how to prepare loads?
Richard

[airborneike]

Meyers, We will just bend Keith's jump wings if he gets too much out of line...or I'll hunt him down with my Wiennie wolves :-)

Ohioguy, nothing deep here just a statement on expectations about the quality of work performed. Customer and smith should be in agreement about the level of fit and finish before the work is done and then if that level is not met then it is on the back of the smith to make it right. Problems come when the customers idea of quality aren't matched by the smiths work and could have been avoided if there had been at least a discussion about what the expectations were to begin with.

Bad work and shipping damage needs to be pointed out and fixed absolutely.

Yes, there are a very few people who will not be satisfied no mater how well the work is performed and their complaints are more of a "power" thing than actual work problems. If you have worked with people long enough, you know of what I speak. These few WILL find it hard to get a smith to do their work.

Mike

[7mmfreak]

Touch those wings and I'll spank you! Mine are original sterling.

Good post Mike. I think good communication and expectation management are key to a successful build. When something goes wrong a little common courtesy on both ends goes a long way. Otherwise, you are right, and you could become "that guy". I didn't realize how small this community of smiths is until I ran into two smiths at the last two matches I shot that know you and Larry.

[Deleted]

Whatever damage that was done to the stock I would blame the shipping company.

I returned a $550 dollar stock to Distributor a while back that I wrapped in 43" thick bubble wrap, 2 sleeping bags and one guard dog to protect it.

Somehow it was damaged in shipping and they wouldn't accept the stock in return.

With all the red tape I had to go through it wasn't worth my time to fight it.

So I kept the stock.

My guess is that 7mmfreaks' gun was well taking care of when it was prepped to ship, and was damaged by the shipping company.

And yes, airborneike is right. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

With what he, and others have done for me, there's no way I can outshoot the guns that I have in the safe, that they've helped me with.

It's normally operator error, or in this case the shipping company who's paying their guys little or nothing to chuck boxes from one truck to the next, as fast as they can.

[rambler]

I replace squeaky wheels.

[12ptdroptine]

Things I have learned in life when it come's to customer service in just about any service.
1. Do your research on what you want. That way you know what is and what is not possible.
2. Do your research and see who is the best at your price level and expectations .
3. Make a list of the possible contractor 's you will consider.
4. Make initial contact with those and interview each other per say. Figure out if you can deal with this individual on a personal basis, Then ask for and check references
5. Be VERY specific on your expectations and keep them within YOUR price point.
6. Know that "extras"have to come out of somebody's pocket. And agree on those up front.
7. When you have selected the contractor , and he agrees to take you on as a customer...act as such... And be polite
8. Get everything in agreement and preferably in writing.. An estimate , that includes a time frame , and remember things can go wrong
I have learned these things and others in life's dealings. I have also learned to be realistic in my expectations. I will be very up front and honest... I am a VERY picky individual. But also very realistic. I let my wants and expectations be known right up front and go over them with my contractor . . And I am ready to pay the fair price to achieve that. Not to smash and belittle him in any way. Just to keep us both on the same page
And remember the person you are dealing with is usually an expert in their field....if you chose otherwise then see #2 again. .and then look at #5 again also.
The person you are dealing with is a human being....remember that and treat them as such... And I bed in return they will treat you in the same way.
Now on shipping....go the extra miles to insure that the samsonite gorilla can not damage your product. I have learned this the hard way. I am sure I over pack.... But then can you really ? Insure it for what it really will cost to replace it and all the custom work.
I have never had a quality issue with any members here on the board...whether it in buying...selling....or work performed . All a great bunch of guys overall to deal with.
Thanks for listening
Drop

[rossman40]

The perils of shipping is kinda beyond your control. You can pack it as well as possible and it can still end up crushed, dropped and even ran over. Even a Pelican case won't always survive a 30ft drop or being backed over by a 10k forklift. At one time I worked at a major air freight hub and have been involved with the transportation industry a lot. I can tell you some horror stories. Still proper packaging helps with the majority. I always try to remember to tell customers not to ship a rifle with the bolt in the action. I've received several broke during shipping even when in a hard case. When shipping the action only it is also best to remove the trigger, gotten several of those bent or broken. Use some sense when packaging, I've received several rifles/actions delivered with the barrel sticking out of the box.

Customer satisfaction is the goal if you want repeat business. But as we all know there is some out there are flat tough to please. I've had several accuracy complaints and all but one time it was operator.

One of the wisest smiths I knew once told me a good smith is one that doesn't make very many mistakes, but more importantly, knows how to fix them when they happen.

[hankinsrfls]

Since we are on the story telling, and I like true stories, Let me tell you all one..

Some years back, I built a custom 6MM AI for a new customer, After receiving this rifle he was so happy he ask me if I would do four more builds for him, He said he had most of the parts laying around and that he had been collection them for years. I said ,sure, I would build them, so we came to an agreement, written on an invoice, he sent me a deposit and the parts and I started building, A 338 Lapua, two, 22-250 AI's, a 6.5-284 and some re-work on a 7mm Rem Mag that he had built by another smith that totally ripped him off. (flag right there) After these were all completed he wanted to come to my shop and pick them up, so after talking with him several times over the coarse of a year, I thought he was a pretty good guy and said sure, come on down, I even offered him a room in my house so he would not have to stay in a hotel after driving 700 miles. He got to my place late, I had a dinner fixed, we ate and then we shot the bull for awhile, I spent most of the next day with him shooting all the guns and when he was ready to head home and it was time to pay me the balance, he said he didn't have it all at this time and would mail me the last $1,000.00 in a few weeks. As I am a business man and I know not to give up the product without payment in full, I told him he could take four of the rifles but he had to leave one of them until the balance was paid in full. At that time I would ship the last rifle to him... Well, He got mad and said I didn't trust him,, I kindly said, trust has nothing to do with it,, He knew what the balance due was, and he knew he didn't have enough money, but he drove down to my shop anyway. He should have told me this before he drove 700 miles to pick them up. This man was trying to get something for nothing,, and I wouldn't let him take the last rifle with him... He tried to entice me by saying if I would let him take all the rifles with him, he would order another rifle and send me some money as soon as he got home, I knew if he didn't have the money to pay for these rifles, where would he get the money to buy another rifle, So I told him to pay off these rifles first and we could talk about the next build. A few weeks went by, I received an e-mail from him saying I ripped him off and he wanted his rifle and his money back that he had paid me for the other work I did... After posting on the LRH forum that my work was exceptional and he would never do work with another smith as long as I was in business. He sued me for his money back (twice)in court, slandered my business on the LRH forum, drove to KY. twice to sue me in court... To make a long story short, I am still waiting on my money and I still have the rifle...

He spent more money suing me than it would have cost to just finish paying off his bill, people like this are those you want to avoid, you never know who they are until its to late, but once you learn who they are you will remember it..

My Mom had a refrigerator magnet that said "When people show you who they are,,, Believe them" .... Mom is gone now,, but that magnet is still on my refrigerator... I see it every morning....

Thanks Jeff Hankins..

[jeff]

Ok, here is a shipping nightmare, coming back from a hunt in Sask.Canada My Cabela's aluminum gun case fell off a wagon between the terminal and baggage and was run over by a tug, it litterly ran right down the middle of it leaving the tire impression to verify what machine did it, even thou the case held together it clammed it open, allowing a visual on the savage ml2 and browning rifle ruining the scopes, rings and bases on both rifles. Since this was an international flight Northwest air would not cover damage, even thou it was on their turf. I was on my way to New Mexico for a orx hunt, another rifle was on UPS next day to Albuquerque. What a nightmare. I did harvest a 180" whitetail in Sask. and a 36" bull on the missle range.

[Dave W]

Apr 21, 2015 10:18:23 GMT -5 12ptdroptine said:

Things I have learned in life when it come's to customer service in just about any service.
1. Do your research on what you want. That way you know what is and what is not possible.
2. Do your research and see who is the best at your price level and expectations .
3. Make a list of the possible contractor 's you will consider.
4. Make initial contact with those and interview each other per say. Figure out if you can deal with this individual on a personal basis, Then ask for and check references
5. Be VERY specific on your expectations and keep them within YOUR price point.
6. Know that "extras"have to come out of somebody's pocket. And agree on those up front.
7. When you have selected the contractor , and he agrees to take you on as a customer...act as such... And be polite
8. Get everything in agreement and preferably in writing.. An estimate , that includes a time frame , and remember things can go wrong
I have learned these things and others in life's dealings. I have also learned to be realistic in my expectations. I will be very up front and honest... I am a VERY picky individual. But also very realistic. I let my wants and expectations be known right up front and go over them with my contractor . . And I am ready to pay the fair price to achieve that. Not to smash and belittle him in any way. Just to keep us both on the same page
And remember the person you are dealing with is usually an expert in their field....if you chose otherwise then see #2 again. .and then look at #5 again also.
The person you are dealing with is a human being....remember that and treat them as such... And I bed in return they will treat you in the same way.
Now on shipping....go the extra miles to insure that the samsonite gorilla can not damage your product. I have learned this the hard way. I am sure I over pack.... But then can you really ? Insure it for what it really will cost to replace it and all the custom work.
I have never had a quality issue with any members here on the board...whether it in buying...selling....or work performed . All a great bunch of guys overall to deal with.
Thanks for listening
Drop

Good post Drop.
To expand on it, ask for pics of the contractors work, CLOSE UP PICS. What looks good from a distance may be an eyesore up close.
Keep in mind opinions are just that, opinions. Especially when dealing with internet personalities. What one guy views as subpar work, the next guy will rave over. I recommend seeing someones work in person so you can form your own opinion and see if it matches your expectation.

[kash913]

Apr 21, 2015 12:47:29 GMT -5 hankinsrfls said:

Since we are on the story telling, and I like true stories, Let me tell you all one..

Some years back, I built a custom 6MM AI for a new customer, After receiving this rifle he was so happy he ask me if I would do four more builds for him, He said he had most of the parts laying around and that he had been collection them for years. I said ,sure, I would build them, so we came to an agreement, written on an invoice, he sent me a deposit and the parts and I started building, A 338 Lapua, two, 22-250 AI's, a 6.5-284 and some re-work on a 7mm Rem Mag that he had built by another smith that totally ripped him off. (flag right there) After these were all completed he wanted to come to my shop and pick them up, so after talking with him several times over the coarse of a year, I thought he was a pretty good guy and said sure, come on down, I even offered him a room in my house so he would not have to stay in a hotel after driving 700 miles. He got to my place late, I had a dinner fixed, we ate and then we shot the bull for awhile, I spent most of the next day with him shooting all the guns and when he was ready to head home and it was time to pay me the balance, he said he didn't have it all at this time and would mail me the last $1,000.00 in a few weeks. As I am a business man and I know not to give up the product without payment in full, I told him he could take four of the rifles but he had to leave one of them until the balance was paid in full. At that time I would ship the last rifle to him... Well, He got mad and said I didn't trust him,, I kindly said, trust has nothing to do with it,, He knew what the balance due was, and he knew he didn't have enough money, but he drove down to my shop anyway. He should have told me this before he drove 700 miles to pick them up. This man was trying to get something for nothing,, and I wouldn't let him take the last rifle with him... He tried to entice me by saying if I would let him take all the rifles with him, he would order another rifle and send me some money as soon as he got home, I knew if he didn't have the money to pay for these rifles, where would he get the money to buy another rifle, So I told him to pay off these rifles first and we could talk about the next build. A few weeks went by, I received an e-mail from him saying I ripped him off and he wanted his rifle and his money back that he had paid me for the other work I did... After posting on the LRH forum that my work was exceptional and he would never do work with another smith as long as I was in business. He sued me for his money back (twice)in court, slandered my business on the LRH forum, drove to KY. twice to sue me in court... To make a long story short, I am still waiting on my money and I still have the rifle...

He spent more money suing me than it would have cost to just finish paying off his bill, people like this are those you want to avoid, you never know who they are until its to late, but once you learn who they are you will remember it..


My Mom had a refrigerator magnet that said "When people show you who they are,,, Believe them" .... Mom is gone now,, but that magnet is still on my refrigerator... I see it every morning....

Thanks Jeff Hankins..

Great post some customers are just aholes
I could probably come up with $1000 for the rifle though lol

[edge]

If you buy a Handi Rifle or Savage or Marlin you expect a <$1,000 rifle and you know what you are getting.

If you spend &2,000 what do you get?
A mounted scope, a bedded rifle, a better recoil pad...what does the average guy know?

Now move to $3k, $4k, $10k, etc what do you get at each price point.

I know that if I buy a Ford I know the fit, finish and quality to expect, I don't know what to expect from a Bentley or a Rolls...would I be disappointed?
I do know that if I find an original 500hp AC Cobra in my driveway I won't be disappointed and I won't even get door handles so beauty is in the eye of the beholder

edge.

[jims]

In 1972 when I was stationed at Fort Hood I had a chance to buy a rough/ran Cobra for something less than $5000. I thought why would I do that when I could get a late model Vette for $3700. I liked my Corvette but in hindsight 40 years later that was not the brightest thing I ever did.
I recently saw some new Bentleys while in San Diego. Certainly very nice but to me some of that cost is in the name. Not that I was buying any but fun to look at. Perhaps a bit of that in 10k firearms also.

[Deleted]

I wouldn't think when talking over a build with a smith that one would need to go over fit and finish and agree on it? No matter the cost of the build?
Isn't it human nature or one would think that it would be, that any qualified smith would go out of his way to make sure fit and finish is as perfect as could be, before any build left their shop? If not at least for self pride if nothing else?
Not sure I agree that this is something that should need to be discussed when planning a build, that should be automatic or call it second nature. I know you'll always have your exceptions and mishaps and also those that send in a "turd" and expect a rose back, I'm not talking about the "exceptions" I'm speaking of a new build in general and I'm not singling out any single builder, I mean all builders/smith's in general.
I just personally think fit and finish should be as good as it could possibly be, without ever even having to mention it.
If one sends in damaged goods then one should fully expect to get damaged goods back, unless they have agreed on a solution, but when you're talking new stuff, I don't think fit and finish should need mentioning, excellent fit and finish should be the end result without a word said, and I'm sure in general, it is, a big percentage of the time. JMHO

[Deleted]

Ohiogut, people today are so use to getting crappy work that they expect it. They are more surprised when they receive a job well don't than when they receive a heavy dose of crappy work. In my day job (electrician) people do not care what the work looks like as long as the light comes on with the switch, whatever they can get cheapest. Don't people know that shoddy wiring is a good way to burn your house down!!

[miketodd58]

Apr 21, 2015 12:47:29 GMT -5 hankinsrfls said:

Since we are on the story telling, and I like true stories, Let me tell you all one..

Some years back, I built a custom 6MM AI for a new customer, After receiving this rifle he was so happy he ask me if I would do four more builds for him, He said he had most of the parts laying around and that he had been collection them for years. I said ,sure, I would build them, so we came to an agreement, written on an invoice, he sent me a deposit and the parts and I started building, A 338 Lapua, two, 22-250 AI's, a 6.5-284 and some re-work on a 7mm Rem Mag that he had built by another smith that totally ripped him off. (flag right there) After these were all completed he wanted to come to my shop and pick them up, so after talking with him several times over the coarse of a year, I thought he was a pretty good guy and said sure, come on down, I even offered him a room in my house so he would not have to stay in a hotel after driving 700 miles. He got to my place late, I had a dinner fixed, we ate and then we shot the bull for awhile, I spent most of the next day with him shooting all the guns and when he was ready to head home and it was time to pay me the balance, he said he didn't have it all at this time and would mail me the last $1,000.00 in a few weeks. As I am a business man and I know not to give up the product without payment in full, I told him he could take four of the rifles but he had to leave one of them until the balance was paid in full. At that time I would ship the last rifle to him... Well, He got mad and said I didn't trust him,, I kindly said, trust has nothing to do with it,, He knew what the balance due was, and he knew he didn't have enough money, but he drove down to my shop anyway. He should have told me this before he drove 700 miles to pick them up. This man was trying to get something for nothing,, and I wouldn't let him take the last rifle with him... He tried to entice me by saying if I would let him take all the rifles with him, he would order another rifle and send me some money as soon as he got home, I knew if he didn't have the money to pay for these rifles, where would he get the money to buy another rifle, So I told him to pay off these rifles first and we could talk about the next build. A few weeks went by, I received an e-mail from him saying I ripped him off and he wanted his rifle and his money back that he had paid me for the other work I did... After posting on the LRH forum that my work was exceptional and he would never do work with another smith as long as I was in business. He sued me for his money back (twice)in court, slandered my business on the LRH forum, drove to KY. twice to sue me in court... To make a long story short, I am still waiting on my money and I still have the rifle...

He spent more money suing me than it would have cost to just finish paying off his bill, people like this are those you want to avoid, you never know who they are until its to late, but once you learn who they are you will remember it..

My Mom had a refrigerator magnet that said "When people show you who they are,,, Believe them" .... Mom is gone now,, but that magnet is still on my refrigerator... I see it every morning....

Thanks Jeff Hankins..

Wow what a idiot.

he sued you knowing he had a balance due on a rifle. Bet the judge laughed his ass off on that one and sent him home with a spanking. 

You ou should send him a picture of it every Christmas or perhaps every hunting season from different tree stands or hunting peserves. Show him all the fun it could be having. 

OMG if  I was not so,sad for you it would be Hillarious.