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Post by eml9 on Apr 15, 2015 19:47:58 GMT -5
.45 cal Mcrem .Shooting 62 grains h4198, first 5 shot group was with saboted xtp .measured under an inch at 100 yards .next was 195 barnes, 3 shots later I still haven't hit the target . I walked up to thirty yards and shot, keyholed about 4 inches from bullseye . the bullets were knurled heavy, I waited 15 min between shots . any ideas on what I can do to fix this issue ? It was 60 degrees light wind.
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Post by ratsnakeboogy on Apr 15, 2015 20:10:43 GMT -5
There were certain lots of 195s with a different base radius that there were problems with?
Did you find any deformed sabots? Did you retest the XTPs afterwards to see if they still grouped, maybe a blown sabot in which case you will have problems till its cleaned out.
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Post by eml9 on Apr 15, 2015 20:28:44 GMT -5
didnt notice any deformed sabots . and yes I shot two more 3 shot groups with the xtp after I shot the Barnes .. Both groups around an inch . I just bought the Barnes from luke recently . are they still having issues with some batches of Barnes or was this a thing of the past ?
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Post by ratsnakeboogy on Apr 15, 2015 20:41:55 GMT -5
It was a past issue. How is the loading pressure of the 195s compared to the XTPs?
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Post by eml9 on Apr 15, 2015 20:52:02 GMT -5
It is slightly less loading pressure but its not like there going down the barrel with ease. Maybe I can try to knurl them heavier. If even possible . they were knurled pretty heavy
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Post by ratsnakeboogy on Apr 15, 2015 21:03:58 GMT -5
Mic them and see what the difference is.
What sabot? The Harvester Light Blue Smooth seems to hold up best for me with the Barnes.
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Post by eml9 on Apr 15, 2015 21:11:30 GMT -5
I'm using the harvest light blue smooths.I don't have a mic. Iv seen a couple different styled file used on the board is there one better than the other ? I figured any knurl on the bullet would be just as good as any other for helping the bullet grab the sabot?
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Post by ratsnakeboogy on Apr 15, 2015 21:19:43 GMT -5
I use a double bastard file, but I do t see what difference it would make. That's the end of my ideas, but there are many on here that are much more versed than myself. I'm sure they will chime in, it's just been a bit slow lately.
Wish you luck!
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Post by eml9 on Apr 15, 2015 21:23:32 GMT -5
Okay thanks. If I can't get something going I might just try sabotless . waiting so long between shots is a pain .
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2015 21:39:49 GMT -5
Backing it down to 60gns might help....
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2015 22:17:23 GMT -5
Okay thanks. If I can't get something going I might just try sabotless . waiting so long between shots is a pain . Once you go sabotless you'll never go back, it's way better! |
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Post by deadeer on Apr 16, 2015 0:16:09 GMT -5
Anything over 50deg is tough with sabots. I agree, back it down a few grains, as low as 56. Seems like some barrels can shoot the Barnes and SST's with any load and some have trouble. The xtp's always shoot good for everyone because they have a sharp shoulder that doesn't stress the sabot. Sabots do work good, but as said, once you try sabot less, and have success, you will not want to go back. Trust us!
Jay
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Post by jeff on Apr 16, 2015 5:12:38 GMT -5
I ran into this problem with a build this winter and had to duplex it to right it. 10/50 n110-h4198 jeff~
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Post by hunter on Apr 16, 2015 5:52:35 GMT -5
What twist rate is your McGowan barrel?
If you have any sst's on hand try a couple of them.
I had a 1/28 barrel once that would not stabilize the barnes or sst's but shot the xtp's great.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2015 6:26:59 GMT -5
Your Mcgowen might be the right size to shoot barnes tez 250's or 290's or parker 275 be's or mh ,.451" right out of the package with no sizing or slight knurl and a wad....Mine is...
Try some to see.....Just depends on what run of barrel you got...good luck
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Post by eml9 on Apr 16, 2015 8:09:13 GMT -5
Its a 1-22 twist. I don't have any SST to try wanted to use Barnes for my hunting load. As far as the parkers and Barnes tez right out of the package without sizing are you guys having any trouble with an occasional flyer even when knurled? I no it is probably different for every barrel . just wondering if I should go ahead and get a smooth form die anyway. Also I'm using a ventliner would that be a problem since I would be shooting a hotter load going sabotless? I guess I would be fine except the life of he vl would be shorter .
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Post by rambler on Apr 16, 2015 8:33:42 GMT -5
If you want to go sabotless get a smooth form die, have your bushing converted with a tungsten bushing and be done with it. You'll still be able to shoot both sabots and without. Opens up many options.
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Post by edge on Apr 16, 2015 8:58:46 GMT -5
As was said before go down to 56 grains and work up until you keyhole and then back off 1 grain.
Sabotless is an option but you either lose BC or gain recoil!
edge.
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Post by onecardchuck on Apr 16, 2015 9:53:12 GMT -5
If you want to stay saboted with any bullet and do not like the wait time as it can be a pain. You can order a cooling rod from rossman40 on the board that he turns down to fit your .45 cal. put it in ice then remove and wipe it with a cloth and insert in barrel and whala you can shoot 30 seconds later with a perfectly cool barrel and you may not have to lower your grains when shooting in warmer weather. You can look in the tips and hints section for some barrel cooler designs.
Hope this helps,
I have one and it works great and IMO the blue smooth sabot with the barnes 195 and knurling is the ticket.
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Post by rangeball on Apr 16, 2015 10:01:47 GMT -5
The xtps are easy to obturate and can take up some of the pressure from a load that's right on the edge of sabot stability. The bx being tougher copper are more sensitive to load pressure, especially if they load tighter. Have you tried them without knurling?
Many can shoot 62gr H4198 from with the hsb and 195bx from their pacnors, but mine is one of the tighter ones, and I can't shoot more than 60gr. If I knurled them, it would be even less.
Like edge said, back down, work back up and find the load that your barrel likes.
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Post by eml9 on Apr 16, 2015 11:40:58 GMT -5
Yes the shot I took at 30 yards was not knurled . I don't think I was blowing any sabots from the barrel being hot ? the final shot I took with Barnes I waited over 20 min to be sure the barrel was plenty cool. Unless the barrel being 60 degrees is too hot ?
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Post by eml9 on Apr 16, 2015 11:44:21 GMT -5
I will start at 56 grains next time I shoot and go up a grain at a time until it keyholes again . thanks guys. Still may try sabotless . I like the idea of not worring about barrel cooling time when shooting sabotted
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Post by rangeball on Apr 16, 2015 11:55:26 GMT -5
With the solid coppers you can blow a sabot from load psi even in cooler temps. I have. Since the bullet doesn't swell to relieve some of the pressure the sabot takes it all, and sometimes just can't.
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Post by eml9 on Apr 16, 2015 12:02:26 GMT -5
What are the advantages of the parkers over the Barnes tez for a hunting ?are they worth the extra money . I will be strictly whitetail hunting
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2015 13:35:44 GMT -5
Easier obturation and B.C. but the barnes are more deadly as they will hold together better being a solid non-jacketed bullet...
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Post by dannoboone on Apr 16, 2015 16:54:49 GMT -5
A set of dial calipers was a must for me, not only to get
the 195bx's to shoot well, but to keep my knurling a
consistent diameter. A couple thousandths difference is
little to you or me, but it's a different ball game inside
a barrel. Practically every 195bx I measured was .001-.003
shy of .400, and that does change a few things on how the
bullet flies.
Pretty accurate dial calipers can be had for less than $30,
and can save you a lot of money on wasted shot groups
because of inconsistent bullet diameters. You NEED ALL of them
to be .400, or maybe even a thousandth or two larger in your
barrel. I would start at .400.....good luck.
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Post by rangeball on Apr 17, 2015 8:51:06 GMT -5
What are the advantages of the parkers over the Barnes tez for a hunting ?are they worth the extra money . I will be strictly whitetail hunting Which parkers? The BE line are a thinner .015 jacket and as stated are easier to obturate and shoot accurately, but they also have more potential to frag at higher speeds on closer shots. Keep them in the boiler room and you should be fine, but hit a big bone on a large buck and you may not find him. The match hunters have a thicker .028 jacket, don't obturate as easily but have a much higher BC than either the BE or the barnes. Depending on impact speed and location they might not open as much as some like to leave a good blood trail, but if you like DRT they are tough enough to take on the shoulder bone and spine junction. The Emax combines the high BC of the match hunters with the thinner jacket of the BE. Better obturation, but shot placement still key to potential recovery success. They do not do well saboted from most reports as the bearing surface is pretty short. I have always stated that for hunting, if a barnes bullet shoots to your accuracy standards it can't be beat terminally. Reliably expansion over the widest range of impact velocities, larger margin of error for shot impact location as they crush bone. I have no doubt that you can get the 195bx to shoot to your liking which will make it the legititmate 300 yd killer many here have found it to be. It's an awesome hunting bullet. If allowed in my state I would take it over the parker BE any day, and only look at the MHs if I wanted to extend the range past 300 yds. |
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Post by rambler on Apr 17, 2015 9:07:46 GMT -5
What are the advantages of the parkers over the Barnes tez for a hunting ?are they worth the extra money . I will be strictly whitetail hunting Which parkers? The BE line are a thinner .015 jacket and as stated are easier to obturate and shoot accurately, but they also have more potential to frag at higher speeds on closer shots. Keep them in the boiler room and you should be fine, but hit a big bone on a large buck and you may not find him. The match hunters have a thicker .028 jacket, don't obturate as easily but have a much higher BC than either the BE or the barnes. Depending on impact speed and location they might not open as much as some like to leave a good blood trail, but if you like DRT they are tough enough to take on the shoulder bone and spine junction. The Emax combines the high BC of the match hunters with the thinner jacket of the BE. Better obturation, but shot placement still key to potential recovery success. They do not do well saboted from most reports as the bearing surface is pretty short. I have always stated that for hunting, if a barnes bullet shoots to your accuracy standards it can't be beat terminally. Reliably expansion over the widest range of impact velocities, larger margin of error for shot impact location as they crush bone. I have no doubt that you can get the 195bx to shoot to your liking which will make it the legititmate 300 yd killer many here have found it to be. It's an awesome hunting bullet. If allowed in my state I would take it over the parker BE any day, and only look at the MHs if I wanted to extend the range past 300 yds.
Too bad there isn't a bullet that could be used sabotless with the same properties as the 195BX
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Post by onecardchuck on Apr 17, 2015 9:15:01 GMT -5
Which parkers? The BE line are a thinner .015 jacket and as stated are easier to obturate and shoot accurately, but they also have more potential to frag at higher speeds on closer shots. Keep them in the boiler room and you should be fine, but hit a big bone on a large buck and you may not find him. The match hunters have a thicker .028 jacket, don't obturate as easily but have a much higher BC than either the BE or the barnes. Depending on impact speed and location they might not open as much as some like to leave a good blood trail, but if you like DRT they are tough enough to take on the shoulder bone and spine junction. The Emax combines the high BC of the match hunters with the thinner jacket of the BE. Better obturation, but shot placement still key to potential recovery success. They do not do well saboted from most reports as the bearing surface is pretty short. I have always stated that for hunting, if a barnes bullet shoots to your accuracy standards it can't be beat terminally. Reliably expansion over the widest range of impact velocities, larger margin of error for shot impact location as they crush bone. I have no doubt that you can get the 195bx to shoot to your liking which will make it the legititmate 300 yd killer many here have found it to be. It's an awesome hunting bullet. If allowed in my state I would take it over the parker BE any day, and only look at the MHs if I wanted to extend the range past 300 yds.
Too bad there isn't a bullet that could be used sabotless with the same properties as the 195BX
There is you just have to deal with the weight increase. There is the 290 grain barnes MZ that Richard has had great success with sabotless or you can go full form like me with the 300 grain barnes TSX. |
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Post by rangeball on Apr 17, 2015 9:44:26 GMT -5
There's also the 250gr TEZ (flat base) and TMZ (boattail). If you want to FF they make a .458 250gr hollow point as well, but the bc is only like .150 I think. 45Omega has had great success getting the barnes .451s to shoot sabotless with duplex.
And from a .50 don't forget the Thors. They are a phenomenal choice as well.
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