Three thumbs up for Shilen barrels.

[elkman1310]

I have got to give Shilen a little praise. I bought a 45cal blank from Midway last fall. Turned it down and installed it on my Savage ML.
This barrel is a real shooter with Parkers and Hornaday's'

This first barrel was a chrome moly. The bullet needed to be sized down to .44925 for a perfect fit. This barrel was very uniform from muzzle to breech. Just the way it should be in a quality controlled barrel. This is Shilen's standard match grade. I bought two #7 Shilens in S/S I received the barrels yesterday. Only 5 week turn around time that is fast for a barrel marker. I cleaned each barrel and tested each one for the correct size bullet. Each new barrel took exactly the same size bullet .44925. That is pretty impressive for a barrel maker to keep tolerances that close on two different type metals and several months in production time.

If your looking for a quality barrel for your next build take a look at Shilen I don't think you will be disappointed . The #7 varmint taper is pretty heavy if you want a sporter style rifle. I am profiling the one barrel down for a hunting type stock.

Also a while back I mention that I was working on a action design for Lawton Machine for a Muzzleloader action which would be non FFL. On March 10th I am flying to Montana with the prototype action. I hope to have a action made within a month or so after that. I will keep everyone posted on the progress of this project.

Take care!

[Deleted]

Lots of good reports lately from Shilen owners, good to hear another good report on them.
Myers129 has some Shilen barrels that will be offered as prefits, with Shilens quality and timeliness, these prefits may become a go to option for new builds.
Any idea of a price tag on this new action if it is a go?
Thanks

[Deleted]

Glad to hear yours are working great too! The fact that they stock all the blanks and then just have to turn them to your profile seems to save a bunch of time for sure. I didn't mic my bullets but I did get an unsized 275 BE down mine with about 30lbs of effort. Enjoy!

[elkman1310]

Well I am not sure how much the action will cost. If we do a Rem 700 clone of the old 700ML. And use a one piece bolt and good firing pin assembly I believe they should be able to knock them out at a good price. This would have a 209 bolt nose.

The action I have been working on is a standard S/A in length. My plan is to install the breech plug inside the action not the barrel. The barrel shank on a Rem ML is very long. Which allowed me to use a standard barrel shank length of a 700 CF and then install a breech plug up to 1.300" in length behind the barrel. The loading port will be shorter but much large than a Savage ML. The rear section of the action for the rear scope base is smaller but it still uses two screws for the rear scope base. The old 600 rem and XP'S only had one screw in the rear. That's not enough because of the recoil we encounter. The Bolt would be a one piece quality assembly. I am thinking of making it larger than .700 used by Rem. The one I made is .750. Reason being it will give me more flexibility with the design and size of the breech plug. The plug will tin coated. It will either have a tungsten bushing or coated replaceable vent liners.

There are some positives for installing the breech plug in the action. (1)One it will be a quality made plug. (2) The plug can be head spaced to the bolt in the action. (3) The plug will be flush with the front internal shoulder of the action (4) Barrels will only require a threaded shank. no more worrying about setting up the breech plug in the barrel. The barrel will seal up against the entire plug and shoulder of the action. (5) A barrel nut could be used to make it a very easy barrel install and swap for different calibers.

Time will tell. I hope to have a action from Lawton within a month or some. I am not sure about getting the plugs coated what the turn around time might be there.

Take care!

[Deleted]

I don't mean to be a jerk but I just want to let you know before you spend a lot of time and money. The idea of the plug not being in the barrel is a red flag for me and I would never use one. You might want to take a poll of potential buyers on this idea. Sorry

[Deleted]

If the action is not cheaper then say a $525 Savage Target Action I just am not seeing the benefit. It's just so darn easy to get a prefit for a Savage and have the barrel on and headspaced in minutes. Non FFL or FFL makes no difference to me. I have no issues completing the form 4473.

[Deleted]

I agree, not to sure I'm sold on the breech plug being in the action instead of the barrel and price will be a huge dictator on the success of this new action. Savage target actions are very nice for a shade over $500. I wish you the best of luck with it and give you props for trying something new, just not sure how well that it will go over. Maybe I just don't understand or can't get a grasp on the theory or benefits from it..

[Mid_Tn_Plowboy]

Personally I want the breech.. plugged, so I don't have to explain anything more to the Wardens or BATF. The ram rod not being on the rifle is enough to explain. Since Ft. Campbell changed a rule or two I have only took a compound bow back on base. The more options the better for builds. Good luck with R&D.

[elkman1310]

This action will be a custom action designed for a muzzle loader. It will no be a converted Savage or anything else. The idea of putting the breech plug inside the action is sound. A prefit barrel would only need to have the threads cut on the barrel shank no other machining required. You could use a barrel nut to make it a easy installation.

Also since the plug doesn't use up the first 1 3/4 of your barrel you can use a shorter thinner barrel that would make a better handling rifle. Not everyone wants a 12lb gun. All you need to do is look at the wasted space and wasted barrel length of a Savage ML to see what I am talking about. People on this board like to experiment with all types of plugs and actions but the general market does not. They want a action that is simple and safe to use. Time will tell.

[rambler]

Mar 4, 2015 9:23:48 GMT -5 elkman1310 said:

This action will be a custom action designed for a muzzle loader. It will no be a converted Savage or anything else. The idea of putting the breech plug inside the action is sound. A prefit barrel would only need to have the threads cut on the barrel shank no other machining required. You could use a barrel nut to make it a easy installation.

Also since the plug doesn't use up the first 1 3/4 of your barrel you can use a shorter thinner barrel that would make a better handling rifle. Not everyone wants a 12lb gun. All you need to do is look at the wasted space and wasted barrel length of a Savage ML to see what I am talking about. People on this board like to experiment with all types of plugs and actions but the general market does not. They want a action that is simple and safe to use. Time will tell.

Pardon the question if it's already been answered, but will this action that incorporates the BP handle smokeless powders?

[12ptdroptine]

Question.please.
if the ignition system is housed in the. Action then how will you seal the plug to the barrel?
Thank you
Drop

[Deleted]

I'm just not seeing it but good luck.

[elkman1310]

I'll see if I can send a picture or two to Richard. Or send me a message and I can send you some. The breech plug will seal up against the barrel. The plug will have a small shoulder to tighten against on the bolt nose side the other end will end up beginning flush with the internal shoulder of the action. The plug will not enter in the barrel it will seal up against it.

[hankinsrfls]

I have thought about this all day while working in the gun shop and I am with the rest of these guys. I see no way it would be feesable to put the plug in the action and not the barrel. Will it work. Yes it probably will, but will it be easy to do and can it be done at home by the majority of guys. I doubt it. The only way I see it working at all is if you use a barrel nut. No I take that back, I really don't see it working at all, at least not reliably.

I also don't see Lawton building an action for less than $900.00. Custom built stuff cost money. Not saying it aint worth the extra money to get custom built stuff, but if I was going to spend $900.00 on an action I would buy a Stiller action with locking lugs. You could then build the rifle using on of the several ignition systems available and have the added strength of the locking lugs. And like most of the other guys here the 4473 form should not be a problem. If you can't legally own a center fire rifle then in my opinion you shouldn't be able to own a muzzle loader either..

Good luck in the R&D of this project... I know it will be fun but I doubt it will work..

Jeff

[Deleted]

Only one way to find out if a new idea will work out, and looks like he is putting legs on it to see what it does. Cudos, the pioneering spirit of this board is what its all about! I will be anxious to see his design and how it works. Time will tell if its a good design, meanwhile I will cheer him on.....

[gar]

Does the breech plug need left hand thread and the barrel right hand? I would still want to pull the plug to clean the mating surfaces.

[dave d.]

I'm confused won't the ignition be inside the action?

[elkman1310]

Frankly I am amazed at the confusion over putting the breech plug inside the action. I will try to send Richard a few pictures today.

If anyone here has ever used a Rem 700ML action You have basically used a action with a breech plug in the action. Remington ran their barrel all the way back through the lug area. They installed the breech plug in the end of the barrel and made it a open breech design. Mine will not be open breech the bolt nose will go inside the action. When you open the bolt you will be able to look in and see the plug. It ain't rocket science.

As far as anyone here Stating they know anything about how Lawton Machine works please don't because you don't know what's going on with this company. The action will be competitively priced. Don't forget I said this will be a Muzzleloader only action. This is not a bench rest action . This action design is far easier to make than any action with a lugged bolt and raceways cut into it.

If I can make a action in less than a day on a manual mill and lathe just how long do you think it would take to make one on CNC machines?

[Richard]

Here are some images Elkman sent me to post and his text:
Hi Richard!

Here are some pictures of this action I made for Lawton Machine . Its seems a few people are confused about this action design.

Look the pictures over and post them for me. I welcome the feed back. I am sure some people will be quick to point out the breech plug is not machined properly for a 209 primer and doesn't have a ven tliner. This is only a test plug for head space purposes. The action is fully functional if I finish the plug.

I really don't know how much simpler it can be. The gunsmith now only has to thread a barrel shank and screw it up for a tight fit . Its so easy a caveman could do it. Also if they wanted to go the barrel nut route you could have multiple barrels and change them out when ever you want.

The plug ends up being 1.320 in length and that can be changed a little if needed. It would provide very good ignition. I want to have the plugs TIN coated and probably go with a pure tungsten bushing.










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[Deleted]

Have you gotten a chance to put a barrel on that action and test the design?

[Richard]

See photo's above.....................

[jeff]

Good Luck, Nasa never offered me a job, I will follow this one. jeff~

[Mid_Tn_Plowboy]

I hope it is a shooter! We need some more options! The pictures helped lol

[jims]

Interesting photos.

[elkman1310]

Thanks Richard for posting the pictures. I hope people can see the difference between the Rem.700ML and my action. I have not had a chance to put a barrel on this action. There are some small changes I want to make to the port opening. I hope Lawton makes one so I can put a barrel one it and test how it functions. I going to stress to them that it has to be affordable.

There are less machine steps in making this action then any Rem 700 CF action. I don't know if it's their goal to just produce the action or to build complete muzzleloaders to sell.

[rileydog]

One problem that might arise is I see two contact points for the barrel . One of which is very critical so no gas cutting will take place . That's a big balancing act . Good luck .

[Deleted]

the only critical contact point will be the lug shoulder as I see it, the plug will be sealing against the barrel face. the rear can be cut slightly short of contact.
the only problem I see with this design is the front seal, If it were me I would make the tennon longer like the ML action and thread the plug into the barrel with a rear sealing plug, it would be a rather simple design change.

the major issue we have now with the savage plug design is the front sealing surface, Im not saying your design wouldn't work as you will have more sealing surface than the savage design BUT IMO it will still be prone to gas cutting where a rear sealing plug is not.

it will be interesting to see your design put into action and again, I will be cheering you on!

[jims]

Good to receive others ideas, many minds at work.

[Deleted]

Here was my concern from the start. If you plan to "butt" the barrel up against the internal shoulder in the action your barrel shoulder at the recoil lug won't be your point of rigid contact. I don't believe it is possible to get the dimensions perfect enough to have these two points equal contact. If your barrel nut area isn't rigid enough I believe accuracy will suffer, if you concentrate on that area and your internal shoulder falls even .001" short you have a problem the way I see it. If you have a gap between the action and barrel at the rear internal shoulder, that is your combustion area. I believe even if it's only a couple thousandths that the chamber pressure will instantly take up that voided space. If you follow remington dimensions and make your action 1.360" OD and 1.0625 tenon diameter you only have about .380" of metal by the time you do your internal threading. To me this would be like building a gun with a (.458+.380) .838 shank, guys here just wouldn't do that. I believe your barrel should have a second step down in diameter that goes into a blind hole in your action, no threads. Then you can concentrate on fit at the barrel nut. The breech plug should probably be changed to rear seal as it is proven already that this is a much better route to go. Also I think the rear of your plug should be tapered similar to a savage plug and the bolt nose should match. The squared off style looks to have better support for the 209 but all the 209 held in the bolt nose actually isn't supported much at all and large loads will cause issues. These are all my opinions and everyone can feel free to dissect them as they please. I told you I wasn't wanting to be a jerk when I started this, so I want to help if I can. Thanks

[elkman1310]

Hi Myers thanks for your input. I can see your point about the recoil lug and contact area. If the recoil lug was a machined part of the action it would not be a problem. The breech plug pictures was strictly to see what length I could fit into a given dimension. All this stuff is subject to change. For all practical purposes I would like them start off with just making the 700ML action with a good bolt and firing pin assembly. I have made several bolt changes to the REM 700 ML action. the one pictured uses a XP100 firing pin assembly from PTG. And the primer holder is a 5.7x28 FN shell holder that is threaded on. its 40 TPI . you can screw different shell holders on from a mag down to this 5.7x28 FN which holder a 209 perfectly.

You don't know how much trouble I have had to try and convince the owner to go with a 209 system. He is still hung up on using some type of case like Rem uses. He has a old Ultimate ML and likes the ease of loading and unloading with the shell. I made my first conversion that way to suit him. But as you know if makes the breech plug to dam long unless you really recess it.

As far as breech plugs go none of them have very much metal to seal up against a barrel. The 45cal gives you a little more meat than the 50 cal but its a weak link. So over time you will get gas cutting. Putting a shoulder on the breech plug would require reducing it considerably. That's one reason why I would like to go to a larger bolt body. So I could fit a shoulder on the breech plug and still have a5/8x18 threaded plug. (That's for the action with the breech in the action)