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Post by nmhunter on Feb 21, 2015 15:12:20 GMT -5
Hi guys,
I am looking for your opinion/input of what would be the ultimate ML to use on a CO hunt. It can be inline, open or peep sights (no scope) and you can use "up to" blackthorn 209 (no smokeless). Also, they require a 50 caliber - sabot less load. I am going to say lightweight is a must for the mountains and accuracy needs to be dialed in at least 200 yards - I don't think you want to get over that with open sights. Load recommendations would be part of the factor. I am going to start researching and let you know what I come up with as well. Lets put a cost limit of $2k.
Let me know your thoughts!
NMHunter
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Post by nmhunter on Feb 21, 2015 15:26:44 GMT -5
That New Ultra Light Arms looks pretty amazing - coming in at 5 lbs. Any body have any experience with these?
The encore pro-hunter looks decent, but I am wondering about the accuracy - any one have any experience? Also it looks like they are maxed out at around 110 or 120 grains by volume of Blackhorn 209.
Also - the new cooper looks promising. I am going to give them a call on Monday. Looks like they will handle up to 150 grains of BH.
Any other ideas? I am thinking someone could put together a pretty amazing lightweight 700 for that price as well.
I am going to say no on the savage MLII just because of the weight...
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Post by 7mmfreak on Feb 21, 2015 15:39:56 GMT -5
I have a NULA but don't shoot subs or black in although I could. I've had a fast twist Renegade as my western legal gun for a few years. I'm about to build a fairly light Rem700 ML with two bolts so I can shoot open or closed ignition. It will also have a set of good irons for states that require it.
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Post by nmhunter on Feb 21, 2015 16:24:40 GMT -5
Can you explain open and closed ignition bolt? Also, what do you recommend for a good set of irons for a 700?
Thanks in advance!
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Post by 7mmfreak on Feb 21, 2015 16:41:45 GMT -5
The open ignition is how the 700ML was designed. The bolt has a gap between the striker/firing-pin and the nipple although it has a weather guard that can cover the gap. That satisfies the requirement that some states have for the ignition system to be open to elements like they would with a sidelock gun. Knight makes several other open ignition guns that satisfy these requirements; some are plunger and some are bolt guns.
The closed ignition is what the Hunter Bolt Nose does and seals the primer in the breach plug with a tighter headspace. The NULA has an even tighter headspace. Knight DISC guns achieve the same thing with the plastic seal. The Omega has a breachblock that makes it closed ignition.
My idea of good irons is an aperature rear (Williams target syle Fool Proof as a minimum) and a good front (Lyman 17 series or quality Partridge as minimum). I was going to use a Redfield Palma rear and Redfield International front but I just sold them. I will probably give the Williams and Lyman a shot as they will probably work just fine to a couple of hundred yards. A Williams with Partridge has worked well on my Marlin lever gun.
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Post by triplese7en on Feb 21, 2015 19:56:41 GMT -5
Looks like they will handle up to 150 grains of BH. Maximum volumetric charges for Blackhorn 209 is 120 grains. |
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a1smokepole
8 Pointer
Being Safe Adds More Fun When Shooting
Posts: 172
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Post by a1smokepole on Feb 21, 2015 20:01:38 GMT -5
I would go with knights ultra lite 50cal. it will shoot BH209 just fine and sabotless to and you can get it with iron sights.
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Post by schunter on Feb 21, 2015 21:31:40 GMT -5
X2 on the Knight Ultra Lite
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Post by nmhunter on Feb 21, 2015 21:33:30 GMT -5
I have been thinking about this build most of the day.
I am using 138 grains by volume of BH 209 in my Remington 700 set up for smokeless and it is pushing a 310 MH bullet at about 2300 to 2400 hundred feet per second out the barrel. It is the cats paw for ML hunts in NM and AZ. With a long range scope with mil dots I am getting amazing results at 500 to 550 yards using a long range hunting scopes/turrets etc. I am not confident I have enough speed to expand the bullet at that distance in game animals, but I am very comfortable with the accuracy of the load in the rifle. I need to research the bullet capabilities some more for shots out that far. It is amazingly accurate (HUGE THANKS TO HILLBILL FOR COMPLETING THE BUILD). BH 209 seems to run pretty well in that 140- grain range. The rifle weighs just over 10.5 lbs with the scope and the recoil is manageable without a comp. If you go much lighter (maybe 2lbs?) on the rifle side you would probably need a comp with the load and then you get into hunting with a compensator which I would prefer not to do.
I would think a similar charge in a ML built for CO regs would be pretty amazing. The only limiting factor would be what you could shoot in an open site and how much recoil you could realistically stand with an ultra light ML. I am considering an "ultra light muzzleloader" a ML without a scope in the 5 to 7 lbs range. A 2" MOA zero at 200 yards with a good open sight system should be very obtainable with a quality barrel. With a good peep site you might be able to push 250 yards. I have read guys on this site are banging gongs with open sites at 300 yards. The other limiting factor beside a purpose built barrel is at least a 23" barrel (not including the breach plug) to get that much powder to burn.
What I am thinking about in the post is what the ultimate light weight rifle would be designed for a CO or Possibly ID/UT hunt as 7MMFREAK was alluding to above. I am thinking this rifle needs to be able to handle elk sized animals. It would probably need to be built to smokeless specs.
Another option might be the encore with a smokeless barrel to handle the powder charge. Once again, the recoil might be to much to handle. It looks like the encore is running 7 to 8 lbs with the standard pro-hunter barrel. If anyone has any experience with the recoil in a TC encore with the smokeless barrel I would love to hear about it. I have shot 120 grains of BH 209 in a pro hunter barrel, but I think I was definitely pushing the limits of the barrel by exceeding the load by 10 grains or so over the maximum rating. NOT A GOOD IDEA. The recoil was manageable, but you know it went off.
Once again, the ultra light arms ML might be the ticket here. I have a tough time comprehending the recoil of a 5 lb ML with a charge that strong, but everything I have read about their stocks say they absorb the recoil. I just have to think a 5 to 6 lb ML has to have some kick with a 300 grain bullet and a heavy charge.
One other thought - the Remington ultimate muzzleloader looks like it will handle the charge, but I am not sure about the accuracy. I have read 2 or 3 few reviews that say you are looking at 2 to 3 MOA at 100 yards. I guess that isn't to bad on a 200 to 250 yard shot, but I would expect better.
I am excited to learn more about the cooper as well as it becomes available.
A1smokepole - What kind of accuracy are you getting with the knights ultalight mentioned above? Also - do you know the maximum charge of BH 209?
Any input is appreciated!
DISCLAIMER: DO NOT USE THAT MUCH BLACK HORN 209 IF YOUR BARREL IS NOT DESIGNED FOR IT! THIS MUCH PRESSURE WILL CAUSE NEARLY EVERY PRODUCTION BLACK POWDER MUZZLELOADER TO EXPLODE. MOST BLACK POWDER COMPANIES WILL PUT OUT A MAXIMUM TO BURN. I am sorry to state the obvious, but if you read this post and didn't have the background it could kill someone so I would rather state the obvious.
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Post by nmhunter on Feb 21, 2015 21:44:41 GMT -5
That Knight Extra Light looks like the ticket. Any idea what the maximum powder load is? Also - what is their 200 yard guarantee?
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Post by 7mmfreak on Feb 21, 2015 21:52:56 GMT -5
I love my NULA but a 300gn bullet at 2300fps will get your attention. The barrel is just long enough given the breach plug design to do what you mention with BH209. You would have to sweat on a front sight as the barrel is quite thin at the muzzle. They are phenomenally precise and accurate but I'm not sure it's the route I'd go. I would want a different barrel and Mel is not real user friendly when it comes to the M209.
For a light gun I like the Knight for the straight forward route. I like a switch barrel .45/.50 on a 700ML as my ideal with dual ignition.
If Cooper does a synthetic like they have hinted at, I could be sold on that as well. The Wilson barrels they use are quite good for muzzleloading.
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Post by 7mmfreak on Feb 21, 2015 22:20:34 GMT -5
That Knight Extra Light looks like the ticket. Any idea what the maximum powder load is? Also - what is their 200 yard guarantee? I think 150gn of black/sub and 2MoA at 200yds |
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Post by nmhunter on Feb 22, 2015 7:29:42 GMT -5
The knight looks like it would do the trick. I also saw they make a conversion kit for musket caps making it legal to shoot in ID WA and OR. I am interested to hear about the accuracy - anyone have any input? Also the rear sight could use pulled back for accuracy.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Feb 22, 2015 8:30:51 GMT -5
Your biggest challenge will be finding a bullet to shoot sabotless in a .50. Very limited. I can think of Thors, powerbelts and Big traditional lead conicals. From trying to do this in a Savage a while back, I discovered that the .50 cal bullets meant for the .500 S & W are too loose and the Barnes .510 bullets are way to tight.
Then, you have to shoot these and see how they do. If I were to start from scratch, I would get the Thor test packs. I think they come in 3 different diameters to help match a bullet to a specific barrel. I would want the tightest match possible that allows you to push the bullet down the barrel without killing yourself.
All the "guarentees" out there I believe are with a saboted load and not big chunks of full bore rounds.
I have no experience with Powerbelts. However, a few guys at camp have had very mixed results and I don't think any of them have shot paper at more than 100 yds.
If it were me and open sights and the limits that Colorado has, I would take my old .54 thunderhawk, get some black powder and some Big Mini's and get Minute of Elk at 100 yds (3-4" groups would be easy to come by) and rely on some good stalking and get within 75-100 yds and center the lungs.
Good luck.
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Post by triplese7en on Feb 22, 2015 8:40:06 GMT -5
Sabotless bullets and high powder charges usually do not produce good accuracy.
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Post by 7mmfreak on Feb 22, 2015 9:54:59 GMT -5
Sabotless bullets and high powder charges usually do not produce good accuracy. They don't? There is some empirical evidence to the contrary here with both smokeless and Blackhorn. Also, 120gn by volume is the limit for some guns, not all guns, and soon you will see published data and guns proofed over 120gn by volume of Blackhorn. |
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Post by GMB54-120 on Feb 22, 2015 11:08:32 GMT -5
Sabotless bullets and high powder charges usually do not produce good accuracy. Thats funny considering Bestill did just that in shooting matches and he did quite well. Ive shot heavy loads of BH209 (exceeding Westerns data) with sabotless 45cal bullets and they shot surprisingly well. What first hand experience do you have that did not shoot well? |
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Post by 7mmfreak on Feb 22, 2015 11:48:56 GMT -5
Probably akin to the testing that led him to believe/post that an SST is the pinnacle long range bullet with a trajectory like a laser gun.
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Post by sabotloader on Feb 22, 2015 11:56:00 GMT -5
I would also agree with the Knight Ultra-Lite. It is an excellent rifle. It is also one of the most versatile rifles on the market with the ability to all BP and sub powders with the ignition system of your choice.
I included some pictures that might also interest you.
The first picture is just a range experiment shooing different bullets with different powder volumes and different powders.
This picture shows the rifle set up as a Western Edition
And I know the rifle will shoot full - even though my full bores were somewhat home made
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Post by 7mmfreak on Feb 22, 2015 13:10:51 GMT -5
Excellent post. Those are phenominal loads in regards to velocity spreads. That could sway me from a 700ML build.
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Post by nmhunter on Feb 22, 2015 13:53:01 GMT -5
Wow - Amazing post. Thank you for passing it on!
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Post by nmhunter on Feb 22, 2015 13:58:52 GMT -5
Do you have any shot data out to 200 yards with that Knight ultra light?
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Post by triplese7en on Feb 22, 2015 14:29:24 GMT -5
Sabotless bullets and high powder charges usually do not produce good accuracy. Thats funny considering Bestill did just that in shooting matches and he did quite well. Ive shot heavy loads of BH209 (exceeding Westerns data) with sabotless 45cal bullets and they shot surprisingly well. What first hand experience do you have that did not shoot well? That's funny that you haven't read recent posts on the Federal 50 caliber Copper Muzzleloading Bullet and about one million posts on Powerbelt bullets. It's also funny, being a majority of ML users in America do not use Blackhorn powder. When I replied with that comment, this thread was not limited to Blackhorn. I read posts from over 10 muzzleloading message boards every day. I get plenty of information regarding this. Go visit them and look in the archives for yourself. Lastly, I never said it doesn't work. Usually is not defined as always. Customarily, routinely, typically, ordinarily, commonly, conventionally, traditionally..... etc... is not always/ Plus there are multiple sabotless bullet-makers out there, to expand this into an overall sabotless case history. |
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Post by 7mmfreak on Feb 22, 2015 14:41:45 GMT -5
I wouldn't say the new Federal bullet or the Powerbelt are, "sabotless". Strictly speaking, and by letter of law as far as some game commissions are concerned, they don't have a sabot. They do not have a sabot but have performance limiting bushing or skirt so, "sabotless" is applied out of context. Sabotless generally refers to conventional bullets, smooth or full formed, loaded so as to eliminate the weak link (skirt, bushing, sabot, etc.) Even the Thor I shoot in my NULA is limited by the copper skirt so cannot achieve what is possible with true sabotless shooting.
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Post by frontiergander on Feb 22, 2015 17:54:32 GMT -5
CVA Accura V2 is a great Colorado rifle. Easy to use, deadly accurate, very comfortable rifle,Superb triggers. Our bullet of choice is the .500" 250 & 300 grain Thor conical. Its basically a full bore diameter Barnes. with 100-110gr Blackhorn209, the rifles shoot sweet all day long. My brothers doe  Exit hole  Another great open sight colorado gun is the CVA Optima with the non thumbhole stock. 100gr BH209 - 300gr Powerbelt Aerolite destroyed her greatly.   |
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Post by triplese7en on Feb 22, 2015 21:39:24 GMT -5
I wouldn't say the new Federal bullet or the Powerbelt are, "sabotless". Strictly speaking, and by letter of law as far as some game commissions are concerned, they don't have a sabot. They do not have a sabot but have performance limiting bushing or skirt so, "sabotless" is applied out of context. Sabotless generally refers to conventional bullets, smooth or full formed, loaded so as to eliminate the weak link (skirt, bushing, sabot, etc.) Even the Thor I shoot in my NULA is limited by the copper skirt so cannot achieve what is possible with true sabotless shooting. I understand your comment. But in posts around the internet, they are referred to as sabotless. It may not be a letter of the law in terms used. I am done with this topic. I wold rather see it back on-topic, concerning the thread-starter's desires and needs. If someone is interested in defining what constitutes a sabot/non-sabot, I suppose they could start a new thread here. Probably start a thread on heavy powder charges too, which I base as volumetric charges that exceed 100 grains (101 plus). If someone wants to discuss that, then please start a new thread and leave this one to the thread-starter wants and needs. |
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Post by encore50a on Feb 22, 2015 21:49:37 GMT -5
Hi guys, I am looking for your opinion/input of what would be the ultimate ML to use on a CO hunt. It can be inline, open or peep sights (no scope) and you can use "up to" blackthorn 209 (no smokeless). Also, they require a 50 caliber - sabot less load. I am going to say lightweight is a must for the mountains and accuracy needs to be dialed in at least 200 yards - I don't think you want to get over that with open sights. Load recommendations would be part of the factor. I am going to start researching and let you know what I come up with as well. Lets put a cost limit of $2k. Let me know your thoughts! NMHunter When first reading and you wanted the ultimate, I was wondering why you just didn't get an Ultimate Firearms CO/UT legal rifle. Then further I read that you want a light weight rifle........... |
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Post by frontiergander on Feb 22, 2015 21:56:57 GMT -5
there is no ultimate CO legal muzzleloader LOL. The open sight restrictions really limits your ability for those 200-300 yard shots.
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Post by encore50a on Feb 23, 2015 6:32:03 GMT -5
there is no ultimate CO legal muzzleloader LOL. The open sight restrictions really limits your ability for those 200-300 yard shots. Hummmmmmm ?
There are guys that can shoot an open sighted muzzleloader much further than 200yds and be extremely accurate. The real restrictions are with the shooter pulling the trigger and the time they put into it.
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Post by nmhunter on Feb 23, 2015 8:44:22 GMT -5
I am not sure what you mean by Ultimate Firearms CO/UT legal rifle. Do you mean these? ultimatefirearms.com/modelsprices.php If so, they appear to be well over $2K. They look like a great ML, but I would like to stay below $2k. The CVA and the Knight Ultra Light looks like they will get the job done at a reasonable price. The NULA, Cooper and others appear to be under $2k as well and might be more than capable. I read some more reviews on Remington's ultimate, but I have not been convinced on the accuracy at 200 yards. Maybe I am just reading the wrong reviews:) I am not trying to endorse anything, I am just looking for a lightweight CO ML that is capable of 200 to 300 yard shots with open sights and I am wondering what is out there. 200 to 300 yards is a long ways with open sights and one thing I am looking for is the accuracy to do it in a 50 caliber. I am sure this is going to take some load work and bullet work to get it done once a ML is picked. I contacted Thor bullets yesterday and it sounds like their bullets will open with a 110 grain BH 209 charge. The intent is for people to be able to look at this thread and gain knowledge if they ever are lucky enough to draw a ML tag in CO or other western states but I am trying to stay focused on CO as it has its own challenges. I appreciate everyones input. Thank you! |
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