What size die for apex 45-70

[acekicker]

I've never resized bullets before as I've always shot sabots out of my smokey 50 cals, so I know absolutely nothing on the subject.

I was wondering if all apex 45-70 barrels had the same bore diameter and if so what that diameter would be? Also what dia. bullet would you start with and through what size die? Would the final dia. of the bullet be the same as that of the die, or is spring back expected?

[cowhunter]

If you buy an adjustable smooth bullet sizer you don't have to worry about which .45 bullets will fit. You can size any .4500--.4520 Bullet to fit your gun.

[acekicker]

Feb 21, 2015 12:37:17 GMT -5 cowhunter said:

If you buy an adjustable smooth bullet sizer you don't have to worry about which .45 bullets will fit. You can size any .4500--.4520 Bullet to fit your gun.

Would I want to size them the same size as the bore? Slightly smaller, or larger? Basically, how much pressure should it require to get the bullets down the barrel?

[jims]

In my experience if they are the same size as the bore you will be unable to get them down the bore, they need not be much smaller, but they must be smaller. Some of the bullets after sizing have a bit of spring back. I have found each bullet manufacturer and type can need slightly different sizing sizes. Some undersize a bit and then knurl (roll the bullet between bastard files) to ever so slightly increase the size and that makes for a good purchase when sliding them down the bore.
All coppers for me have been the hardest to size and some anneal them to soften them a bit.
I do not want them to fall down the bore but want some engagement, perhaps 15 to 35 pounds of force is an estimate. Some load with the gun sitting on a bathroom scale to get a general idea of the weight used/needed.
My .40 (because there are not a great deal of bullets available) as say in .45s loads with very little pressure. Much less than I like but I do not have much choice as the bullets are too small and even with knurling they load loosely IMO, however they shoot well and I have positive ignition.
Not to throw too much at you but some use duplex loads for assured ignition but many have had good success with single powders. I probably have you totally confused by now but keep reading, this site has good members with a great deal of experience and are willing to help.

[acekicker]

Feb 21, 2015 13:03:05 GMT -5 jims said:

In my experience if they are the same size as the bore you will be unable to get them down the bore, they need not be much smaller, but they must be smaller. Some of the bullets after sizing have a bit of spring back. I have found each bullet manufacturer and type can need slightly different sizing sizes. Some undersize a bit and then knurl (roll the bullet between bastard files) to ever so slightly increase the size and that makes for a good purchase when sliding them down the bore.
All coppers for me have been the hardest to size and some anneal them to soften them a bit.
I do not want them to fall down the bore but want some engagement, perhaps 15 to 35 pounds of force is an estimate. Some load with the gun sitting on a bathroom scale to get a general idea of the weight used/needed.
My .40 (because there are not a great deal of bullets available) as say in .45s loads with very little pressure. Much less than I like but I do not have much choice as the bullets are too small and even with knurling they load loosely IMO, however they shoot well and I have positive ignition.
Not to throw too much at you but some use duplex loads for assured ignition but many have had good success with single powders. I probably have you totally confused by now but keep reading, this site has good members with a great deal of experience and are willing to help.

This site is awesome! So much good info. Jims, your post is very clear and helpful. Thanks! Do you do any full sizing of your bullets? Is that preferable to smooth sizing? Does a full sizing die need to be made from a piece of the same barrel the bullets will be shot from??

[dannoboone]

Some have borrowed another's die (full form) and had success
in their barrel, but it's a bit of "luck of the draw". You
can get a smooth die which will not require barrel drop. The
newer dies offered by Swinglock and Jeff Hankins can be used
smooth or full form. You could possibly get the smooth form
and later get the full form part if you find barrel drop that
can be used for your barrel.

Each barrel is a little different, and this bullet sizing
business makes a difference, not in thousandths, but in
tenths of thousandths. If you were to get a non-adjustable
die (like the one Lee sells), it might work for one type of
bullet in your barrel, but not another. I get no spring back
from annealed coppers, but quite a bit from jacketed bullets,
so different die settings are needed.

Be careful knurling bullets with files. I ruined a perfectly
good barrel because of an unnoticed file tooth embedded into
a bullet. Have since made a knurling tool using the proper
knurling wheels.

[jims]

I first started with a barrel that fortunately did not need a sizing die, the bullets available were just a bit undersize and knurling cured that. Later on a different ML I used smooth sizing dies. That actually worked pretty well. I also now have a full formed die. As you ask the full form is usually made from a short piece of your barrel drop off or cut off. It of course has the same lands/grooves as the barrel you will be shooting with. There are several that will take that drop and turn it into an adjustable die. That probably is the best but the smooth is not bad. If I was going to spend the money I would opt for the full formed vs smooth although a number of shooters here have done well with the smooths.
Now you may ask could you not just use your drop off and run your bullets through the same and not spend any money on having an adjustable die. In "theory" that sounds good but it just has not worked out well. Springback is an issue and without adjustment IMO you are limited in bullets and what you can do. Some bullets shot out of a clean barrel can be slightly larger than in a fouled barrel.
If you do not have a barrel drop or do not want to cut your current barrel to get one, if it is a common barrel and twist you might be able to get a drop from another that has one for whatever reason. It would not be "perfect" as it was not from your individual barrel but some have done that with pretty good results actually.
If I were starting all over and in the beginning stages I would use lead core bullets vs. all solid coppers. They are softer and easier to use IMO. Now some have done quite well with the solids but annealing (heating) to soften them could be required and that is just another step. Just trying to keep it easier to start.
There are many on this site with loads more experience than I have and I am sure they will chip in when they see your questions. Just a little less activity now than around the deer seasons but you have the time advantage on your side right now to procure what you need and the time to get bullets/loads down pat before season.
The reason some like sabotless versus sabots is sabots can at times, especially in warmer weather or warm barrels, not shoot as well as sized sabotless. The sabot has been a weak link for some. I was going to say it would be slightly cheaper to shoot without the cost of the sabot but that is really nothing especially when a die has to be purchased. Really it comes down to more consistent accuracy in all temperature conditions in my opinion.
I hope you are able to progress well with your endeavors.
Just as a side note, bullets can run from 40 cents or so to up to $2 apiece. The higher end are not bad if only a few are used for deer, expensive paper punching. Some of the more expensive are used by shooters shooting some pretty far ranges, if one keeps the powder levels down and the shots are under say 150 yards there are a number of adequate and reasonably priced bullets.
The last thing, if any questions ask, and be safe and use a witness mark on your ramrod.

[acekicker]

Sure makes for a lot of things to consider, and a whole lot of variables!
If the bullets need to be slightly smaller than the bore diameter to load well, I guess the chances of finding a non sized bullet that would fit right out of the package would be next to none?
Anyone try sizing .451 250gr or 300gr SSTs?
I've shot them in a sabot using blackhorn 209 and had decent accuracy out to 300 yds and excellent performance on deer out to just under 200 yds.
Smls would be pushing them out at considerably higher speeds. I'm wondering how accurate they would be and how they would hold together on game?

[bestill]

If you want to order a few parker 270 emax bullets from luke at arrowhead sporting goods.
They a little pricey but awesome bullet and every apex45/70 ive handled will Load great with these rite from the box.

[jims]

I do not have an Apex but bestill has shot a number of barrels sabotless. If that bullet works for you, even if pricey if you can get dialed in quickly and only use a few on deer, without the cost of a die you still might be money ahead.
I got a smokeless ML from him with a Douglas barrel that uses the 275 grain Match Hunters just perfectly on a clean barrel. I also have a McGowen barrel that takes one bullet without sizing. Each barrel and barrel company has somewhat different dimensions and if one does not have a die you either just have to experiment and spend money on various bullets that you then might not use, get good combo suggestions from those that have used the Apex or get an adjustable die. In the long run the die may be best overall. It would have some resale value if ultimately sold, many bullets sent downrange used in testing that do not work well have little value beyond frustration.

[acekicker]

Feb 22, 2015 8:42:02 GMT -5 jims said:

In the long run the die may be best overall. It would have some resale value if ultimately sold, many bullets sent downrange used in testing that do not work well have little value beyond frustration.

Good point!