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Post by jeff on Feb 19, 2015 15:53:18 GMT -5
With CVA, H&R, and TC all be used for smokeless break open guns today, does any have a strength advantage? I was asked this question, and I only have a SWAG, [Scientific Wild a$$ Guess] ? thanks jeff~
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Post by edge on Feb 19, 2015 16:02:42 GMT -5
Personally I would much rather see a 5/8 or 9/16 diameter BP in smaller contours.
Just my opinion, edge.
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Post by Jon on Feb 19, 2015 16:28:03 GMT -5
+1
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 16:30:06 GMT -5
I would agree with edge on this one, the break opens as a whole just don't have as much beef around the boiler room. the Apex has a slightly larger dia barrel and breech area than the encore but I know little of the H&R...
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Post by bestill on Feb 19, 2015 17:23:07 GMT -5
I believe the apex has the edge in strength 1.100 chamber end, heavier stainless frame and little better hinge pin setup. I build one with a 5/8 qrbp . Very nice gun thee apex. Its in Arkansas killing hogs last i heard.
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Post by 10ga on Feb 19, 2015 17:39:03 GMT -5
As for edge in safety, it should go to "better" and thicker steel in the powder burn area. As for real life safety, I haven't seen a break action blown up yet referring to the safety forum. Probably some bulged barrels out there but haven't found a "blown" barrel from a break action. All of the failures I'm aware of have been "bolter" type, but I haven't done a really deep mine search. IMO the action type doesn't really matter: break action, various bolter, Martini type, high or low-wall, drop block, trap door or whatever.... it's the barrel, breech plug and primer/vent liner arrangement etc... that hold the pressure. If you can get thicker barrels in the powder burn area then that provides the most safety for our beloved SML addiction... JMHO and probably just barely $.02 worth of opinion. As captain obvious it's pretty much SWAG. 10
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Post by rambler on Feb 19, 2015 17:45:53 GMT -5
I've got an H&R that SMI built with a Douglas barrel. It's got 1.125 breech area for 3.5" with a 9/16" BP, then .900 for 26". There's still the issue with scope mount holes over the breech area being a possible weak point, especially in smaller contours. Until that situation is over come, bolt guns will always have the larger load advantage even if break opens have after market barrels with heavy contours.
I believe from personal experience and a lot of reading on this board if you keep loads in the 60ish or under with 4198 equivalent you're probably pretty safe.
One possible advantage to a break open is the scope being mounted entirely on the barrel gives it a little relief from recoil.
I believe in the proper hands with the proper load any break open on any given day can kill all or most animals in the North American continent out to 300yds.
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Feb 19, 2015 18:34:53 GMT -5
Why does there have to be a debate? Everybody here has the type of gun they want to shoot. And for their own personal reasons. This is going to turn in to a "my dog is bigger than your dog" thread.....Hell fire.....they ALL have limits drop
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Post by rambler on Feb 19, 2015 18:40:09 GMT -5
How bout just a conversation?
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Post by speedrackin on Feb 19, 2015 19:25:16 GMT -5
I think it just personal preference, bolt / break open they both have there place . I just like single shot break opens , always have i don't even own a bolt center fire. But after this next break open build it will be a Hankins bolt that i am positive .That gun will be strictly used in specific huntin situations for sure
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Post by squeeze on Feb 19, 2015 20:23:07 GMT -5
the break barrels are lighter and cheaper, but kick more. at least mine do.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 20:25:51 GMT -5
Don't have one yet, but have always wanted an Apex and will likely add one to the collection someday.
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Post by lwh723 on Feb 19, 2015 20:54:59 GMT -5
Personally I would much rather see a 5/8 or 9/16 diameter BP in smaller contours. Just my opinion, edge. I'm going to be offering a 9/16" very soon.
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Post by dannoboone on Feb 20, 2015 9:15:30 GMT -5
Personally I would much rather see a 5/8 or 9/16 diameter BP in smaller contours. Just my opinion, edge. I'm going to be offering a 9/16" very soon. For the Brux barrels??
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Post by edge on Feb 20, 2015 9:25:00 GMT -5
My comment was strictly limited to smaller barrel contours! IMO a long BP with a large diameter such as the Savage plug should not be used in barrels with minimal wall thickness...at least with full pressure loads! Like I wrote it is simply my opinion, when I risk loosing fingers or a hand I will choose a belt and suspenders edge.
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Post by rickster on Feb 20, 2015 13:01:23 GMT -5
I have both and prefer my Savage smokeless most of the time but prefer my Apex, which is still feed by Blackhorn 209, when in a tree stand. I prefer not to put a primer in until I am settled in a blind or in a tree stand and the Savage can be difficult for me with fat fingers,especially in the cold. I am not sure I would want to simulate the type of recoil I get with the Savage loads in an Apex. So far being fairly new to smokeless I have strayed to far off the path with my Savage and until I learn more and have a better understanding of powders and pressures it is best I stay away from the smaller contour barrels. I was pretty well done with my Apex until I started using Blackhorn. Now I enjoy both but have to be very diligent with marking loads etc. When I was still using pellets it was more obvious to not mix things up. Now not so much using a form of loose powder in both. On the safety theme I have always liked having the option of pulling the plug on Apex quickly to look if unsure. I plan on doing the third screw conversion to my Savage to facilitate a "less hassle" removal of the breech plug at the range. All that said my Apex is one of my favorite rifles period as to how it feels, balances and points. I think the TC encore is a pretty fine rifle but I never have cared for how it felt and shouldered, just me.
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Post by edge on Feb 20, 2015 14:00:43 GMT -5
If I am walking around I definitely use the H&R. Light, fast pointing and with a modest load the recoil is not bad at all. It won't be my go to open field long range rifle but anything under 200 is toast.
edge.
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Post by bigmoose on Feb 20, 2015 14:25:39 GMT -5
I would think the Ruger No. 1 in ,458 would be an excellent choice. No doubt about the strength of the action.
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Post by rambler on Feb 20, 2015 14:31:58 GMT -5
The action may not be in question but the issue of the scope holes being in the barrel is still open for "debate"
I called Krieger a while back and asked a person there about the issue, explained what the barrel is being used for and he said there is a minimum thickness between the bottom of the scope hole and the chamber. He said gunsmiths would know these tolerances.
I would think anything that can handle some of the loads that the Ruger #1 uses would also accommodate all or most of the loads used in smokeless shooting.
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Post by rickster on Feb 20, 2015 14:39:43 GMT -5
Mentioning the scope mounting holes brings to one of the things I don't care for with the break guns and that is how close the rings are together vs. any bolt gun. It makes sense now when you mentioned the amount of material in that area. Duh! Now I understand why they do it that way as that is where the "beef" is. It probably makes no difference but I just like the idea of the rings being spread a bit more then the break guns. The integeral mount used by Ruger might be an advantage with regard to scope mounting vs. the recoil.
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Post by bigm00se on Feb 20, 2015 15:51:08 GMT -5
What's the intial pressure spike when shooting a 150 gr. charge of blk powder. How's it compare to a normal smokeless charge. No doubt a double load would cause problems, probably the same as in other action choices
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Post by norseman1 on Feb 20, 2015 16:10:35 GMT -5
Does anyone actually have pressure numbers PSI for heavy smokeless loads????I am thinking as an Encore handles 500 S&W and 460 S&W which are at 62,000 PSI,that one should hold a substantial SMZ load.That would mean they proof them at 124,000 PSI.Just sayin!!!norseman1
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Post by dannoboone on Feb 20, 2015 18:00:04 GMT -5
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Post by ratsnakeboogy on Feb 20, 2015 18:34:42 GMT -5
I have several Encore conversions and I take them for what they are. I only use them for saboted loads with 57gr H4198 or 42gr AA5744. I'm very careful and check loads with marked ramrods before each hunt. My sons use these guns so I'm super careful and I'm always with them, I don't let them go without me.
I think they have a place in what we do, but IMO are not the platform for pushing the limits of testing loads.
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Post by 1gifford on Feb 20, 2015 19:15:18 GMT -5
The nice thing about my Apex is, I can just break it open and verify by looking through the breech plug hole that it is empty. I would like to put a break on it as it is a little kicker with my 10/50 loads....although not sure who could put one on.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 19:21:09 GMT -5
Putting a brake on it would be a breeze, pm me if you want details. Thanks
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Post by Boonechaser on Feb 20, 2015 19:53:41 GMT -5
I have to admit that when I got back my barrel from slufoot and could see through my scope mount holes, it had me concerned and a bit jumpy on the first few shots. I shoot a duplex load 10/48 and really like the light recoil. With the limb saver pad, felt recoil feels no more than my nephews .410 Where I hunt most shots are under 50yds in thick brush and a short break action is great. Even on open fields I can only think of a few places I could stretch it out to 300yds. So for me the break action encore is the perfect fit but I still think about them screws holes, almost every time I pull the trigger.
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Post by edge on Feb 20, 2015 23:01:28 GMT -5
SNIP. I would think anything that can handle some of the loads that the Ruger #1 uses would also accommodate all or most of the loads used in smokeless shooting. IMO, for that to be true you need to compare the diameter of the cartridge and the BP! Let's compare say a .458 Lott with the end diameter at 0.481 and the end of a Savage BP at 0.605 Hmmm they don't seem the same to me and that is the actual BP not the hole you drilled to accept it! In QL the .577 Tyrannosaur cartridge is pretty close dimensionally to the Savage plug...IMO ask a barrel maker if they would chamber your H&R for that cartridge but necked down to a .458 with the standard contour and see what they say. edge.
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Post by ratsnakeboogy on Feb 20, 2015 23:14:29 GMT -5
Ok, so I'm gonna come right out and ask the question that is being danced around.
Are we taking a true risk running these break open conversions with normal loads? I haven't had or seen an issue yet, but if I'm putting myself or worse my son's at risk I'll rethink it with a quickness.
The people replying to this thread I have great respect for, so what say you?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 23:23:06 GMT -5
My opinion is if you stay around the 62gr h4198 and a 200 in a sabot or even a 250 sabotless you are being mindful of the limitations of a 1" barrel. If you are set to shoot 70gr charges with any bullet you choose you have accepted your own risk in the event of a loading mistake. IMO a barrel isn't going to just open up for an internal view if you respect it's capabilities and take great caution in loading as we all strive to do. Word on the street is that there may be a small diameter plug coming soon for anyone that is concerned.
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