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Post by norseman1 on Dec 31, 2014 11:33:35 GMT -5
Is this basically the same idea as the old Savage 10ML ,except for using black powder substitute?
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Dec 31, 2014 11:48:54 GMT -5
I got my hands on one at GM. Looks and feels like good quality. It was priced at $1299 Drop
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Post by Mid_Tn_Plowboy on Jan 3, 2015 1:36:40 GMT -5
200gr shooting over priced 700?
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Post by linebaugh on Jan 3, 2015 7:24:42 GMT -5
Perhaps we should not be so quick to judge. These guns are not selling for the $1200. ticket price which would make them a very poor investment. I have a buddy here that recently bought one and I believe he paid $750. for it brand new.
The ignition system appears to be working top notch so far and the ignition modules are coming out clean on the outside and inside both... which blew my mind. It's too early to say wbat the longevity of the modules sealing on the inside will be but so far it has me very impressed.
As for accuracy, thus far he is getting many groups in the 1.5" range and he has not played with many loads yet. I expect that he will soon find a load that will shoot in the 1 MOA range.
I'm not advocating that anyone go out and buy one of these but at $750 I believe they offer a pretty good bang for the buck if you can live with .50 and sabots. Many thousands of people do.
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Post by Mid_Tn_Plowboy on Jan 3, 2015 11:28:15 GMT -5
That price is a lot more attractive
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Post by miketodd58 on Jan 3, 2015 11:53:25 GMT -5
Perhaps we should not be so quick to judge. These guns are not selling for the $1200. ticket price which would make them a very poor investment. I have a buddy here that recently bought one and I believe he paid $750. for it brand new. The ignition system appears to be working top notch so far and the ignition modules are coming out clean on the outside and inside both... which blew my mind. It's too early to say wbat the longevity of the modules sealing on the inside will be but so far it has me very impressed. As for accuracy, thus far he is getting many groups in the 1.5" range and he has not played with many loads yet. I expect that he will soon find a load that will shoot in the 1 MOA range. I'm not advocating that anyone go out and buy one of these but at $750 I believe they offer a pretty good bang for the buck if you can live with .50 and sabots. Many thousands of people do. At $750 they do seem like a good price. I sort of feel like the many that have posted here that Remington made a mistake when they went with the Ultimate as a 4473 firearm. The original 700ML had really good barrels on them. They sure do shoot good with the Hunter 209 kit. Too bad they were hampered by the blow back issue. I think its one of the best muzzleloaders out there with the proper conversion. I respectfully disagree that you will see many of these getting converted to Smokeless. I cannot see someone spending $750 on one of these when they can buy a center fire donor for much less and re barrel it. The savings for a Donor action alone would almost pay for the barrel.
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Post by Jon on Jan 3, 2015 15:36:05 GMT -5
norseman1. That is to me a big except. I would have to agree with the comments. Unless you are as paranoid as I am a $300.00 700ml for say $300.00 and the proper parts would be a much more functional and better investment. From what I see the ignition system is good for only sub pellets and don't get me wrong if that is what you want go for it. It seems to do that very well.
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Post by hankinsrfls on Jan 3, 2015 16:17:37 GMT -5
There is going to be a lot of conversions. Once people start shooting these ML's and get aggravated with cleaning and shooting black powder and black powder substitutes they will start converting. The Ultimate ML is a great platform to start with.,,,. I have three of them on the bench right now getting converted to a 45 caliber and the HIS ignition system.. And one more is on the way for conversion...
Jeff..
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 3, 2015 20:11:51 GMT -5
899.00 at Cabela's
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2015 20:13:51 GMT -5
Thats a great price for a donor action.
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Post by rambler on Jan 3, 2015 20:18:34 GMT -5
What makes the Remington ultimate better than a regular short action bolt?? I'm just curious?? For a donor gun that is
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 4, 2015 19:48:57 GMT -5
forget about a donor action, I think it would make a fine 50 cal. The ignition system is far superior to the Savage, I can see a much faster second shot. I wonder how fast it will push a 400gr Barnes all copper bullet. Would 200grs of triple 7 be a safe load, if it would get 1700FPC It would take any animal in NO. America.
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Post by miketodd58 on Jan 5, 2015 19:00:31 GMT -5
There is going to be a lot of conversions. Once people start shooting these ML's and get aggravated with cleaning and shooting black powder and black powder substitutes they will start converting. The Ultimate ML is a great platform to start with.,,,. I have three of them on the bench right now getting converted to a 45 caliber and the HIS ignition system.. And one more is on the way for conversion... Jeff.. Coming from you that speaks volume. So let me ask. What makes the Remington Ultimate a better choice than say taking a standard 700 action and building on it?
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Post by kahuner on Jan 5, 2015 20:12:39 GMT -5
I'll speak for myself as to why the Remington 700 Ultimate made a good rifle to convert. First of all, learning that BH 209 is NOT recommended is just poor planning on Remington's part. To put a new muzzleloader into production w/o the capability to use BH 209 is idiotic!!
Bought mine new for $800 w/ a laminated stock.
Other than the barrel and breech plug, all parts are useable on the conversion. Laminated stock, trigger group and receiver.
In my particular case the conversion to 45 cal. smokeless/ sabot-less was $1550 from Jeff Hankins based on the options I chose. YMMV
So $2350 complete is a very respectable price for a rifle like that. This is all predicated on the fact that you want to shoot 300 yds or more and get rid of the sabot at the same time. Having to use a sabot is a PITA. Here in MN a muzzleloader buys me 2 more weeks of deer hunting.
That's why I did it.
Kahuner
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Post by 10ga on Jan 5, 2015 20:47:57 GMT -5
So $2350 complete is a very respectable price for a rifle like that.
Respectable is not the description I'd use for putting that together for that price from a NIB donor called "Ultimate". I could start with a donor called "rust bucket" and end up right where you are and not use quite so many $. JMHO, 10 ga
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Post by hankinsrfls on Jan 5, 2015 21:10:10 GMT -5
There is going to be a lot of conversions. Once people start shooting these ML's and get aggravated with cleaning and shooting black powder and black powder substitutes they will start converting. The Ultimate ML is a great platform to start with.,,,. I have three of them on the bench right now getting converted to a 45 caliber and the HIS ignition system.. And one more is on the way for conversion... Jeff.. Coming from you that speaks volume. So let me ask. What makes the Remington Ultimate a better choice than say taking a standard 700 action and building on it? Kahunter hit it right on the nose.
Remington did a very good job on these rifles in my opinion except for the 50 caliber and the ignition system. Being limited to black powder and its subs really is a PITA for most people, so if you convert it to smokeless you have a great gun for less money.
The action on the new Remington ML is a solid bottom action, a lot of people think this is better for a single shot rifle. I really don't think it makes much difference. The stock (s) are of good quality. I prefer the laminated wood over the B&C stock but a lot of people like the B&C better so you have a choice there. The stock is already cut for a ram rod and the retaining spring is in place and ready to go.
Converting this ML to a smokeless 45 using the (HIS) Hankins Ignition System is a good choice.
After talking to a guy today (that is dropping of his ML tomorrow for conversion) and finding out that his priming modules are only lasting 2 shots and then start leaking and after 3 to 4 shots they are toast, and have to be tossed in the trash. At $1.50 per module and getting 2 good shots from them, that is 75 cents a pop and added to the bullets, primers and powder it gets up there in cost and aggravation to shoot this thing. My modules are $5.00 each, kit comes with 25, each module will last over 50 shots, so at that questimate it is 10 cents a shot, 7 times cheaper so if you shoot a lot it could end up saving you a few dollars.
So, in my opinion,, if you want to use the stock that comes with the new ML it is a very good starting platform for a conversion. If you are going to replace the stock with a Manners or McMillan or any other stock then it would not be a wise choice to buy the ML, just get an SPS and start with that...
If you already have a Remington 700 short action as donor, then stay on the yellow brick road, it will make as good a shooter as any.
Jeff...
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Post by hankinsrfls on Jan 5, 2015 21:23:54 GMT -5
So $2350 complete is a very respectable price for a rifle like that.
Respectable is not the description I'd use for putting that together for that price from a NIB donor called "Ultimate". I could start with a donor called "rust bucket" and end up right where you are and not use quite so many $. JMHO, 10 ga 10.
Some people want better than a rust bucket. That's what life is about. getting what you want....
kahunter is getting a lot more than just a barrel change,,,, he is also getting the barrel fluted, the barreled action pillar bedded into the stock, a dual purpose bullet sizer, a new custom made stainless steel barrel band and ram rod feral, a muzzle protector and funnel, and he is getting his scope mounted and sighted in. So when you think of the total package the price is not bad.
Us gun builders have to make some profit or else you wont have any one to yell at for making a buck..
Jeff.
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Post by rkrobson on Jan 5, 2015 21:34:12 GMT -5
Well put and good advise Jeff, Iam a believer, Ray
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Post by speedrackin on Jan 5, 2015 22:25:25 GMT -5
Looks like this could be on the list for me .......all it needs is a little tweek from JH and WA LA. very cool
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Post by ping on Jan 5, 2015 23:33:54 GMT -5
I like cheap gas,,,, Not cheap guns...........
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Post by 10ga on Jan 6, 2015 11:23:07 GMT -5
Jeff, I have no problem with a person making a profit. I have a great understanding of what makes things run. I also believe in using a good and qualified professional to do the job and they don't work cheap. I just think 8C is way too much to put into a donor action and lam stock. I am certain that the value of the materials and work you provided is certainly worth it. I just don't think the 899 quoted by moose or the 800 quoted by kahunter is a good value for where to start on building a gun, especially with the NIB donor being labeled "ultimate". I see 700 short action guns all the time for sale at much less than the ultimate price. Just as example I looked and found a like NIB 700ML SS and purchased it for 3C, parted out the barrel. That is certainly a good start way south of 8C. Could end up same place as the rifle in discussion and at $1850 which is a much better outlay to end up in the same place. by the way the place that is most important is holes in the X ring at whatever range you want to discuss. Even at the $2350 outlay it is a much better price than some of the other SML out there, just way beyond what this old guy can afford. I just can't afford to buy my way into holes in the X ring. No disrespect intended just a different view of how to get to those holes in the X. And as for rust bucket find rossmans thread about how he rehabbed one into a very nice donor. Best to all, 10 ga
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Post by hankinsrfls on Jan 6, 2015 13:55:25 GMT -5
10... I understand where you are coming from,, but some guys don't have the time to hunt and peck for a $500.00 savings. for those of you who have the time and ability to build these yourself, that's great, but I often hear where someone is paying to much and I can do it for this much.. Maybe you can do it cheaper for yourself, but if it was your livelihood your prices would soon go up in order to pay the overhead.
I can put a new roof on my house for a lot less than the contractor would charge me but I would rather pay him to knock it out in a week instead of me climbing up on the roof every weekend for a month to save a few hundred dollars....or even a few thousand dollars. There are a lot of guys that would rather pay a builder to build his rifle so he can spend his time hunting or fishing or just relaxing after a hard days work,. To each their own,
Jeff.
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Post by rangeball on Jan 6, 2015 14:24:53 GMT -5
I like cheap gas,,,, Not cheap guns........... That explains the "ping"
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Post by ratsnakeboogy on Jan 6, 2015 14:49:23 GMT -5
I like cheap gas,,,, Not cheap guns........... That explains the "ping" That's funny right there!
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 6, 2015 14:53:07 GMT -5
Having owned many custom items, there is no way to put a price on a one of a kind gun or knife. It is worth what the maker and buyer agree to. Thats why its called custom. Hand made suits cost 2500-3500 dollars, yet it has the amout of material as an off the rack suit. I had a Sharps Rifle made about 35 years ago it had the finest of every thing, best wood, gold inlay, and engraving never had it out of the house, but loved looking at it touching it, was it worth the price, to me it was.
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Post by speedrackin on Jan 6, 2015 15:07:22 GMT -5
Well said Bigmoose and jeff , i like one of a kind Custom , Its the feelin often imitated but never duplicated ....... Put the word custom in front of anything and see what it does .
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Post by ping on Jan 6, 2015 15:24:29 GMT -5
That explains the "ping" That's funny right there! That is funny,, except cheap gas makes my wallet fat..
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Post by miketodd58 on Jan 6, 2015 17:59:26 GMT -5
About the cheapest a man can construct a custom centerfire is somewhere in the $1500 price range. That is using a stock Remington 700 ADL and putting a decent barrel on it. That does not include custom stock options or custom trigger options. Price from there just goes up. So $2200 does not seem so out of whack for a quality muzzleloader built by a gunsmith the quality of Mr.Hankins. He is more than just a parts assembler. He is a master gunsmith and machinist.
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Post by lwh723 on Jan 6, 2015 18:05:50 GMT -5
About the cheapest a man can construct a custom centerfire is somewhere in the $1500 price range. That is using a stock Remington 700 ADL and putting a decent barrel on it. That does not include custom stock options or custom trigger options. Price from there just goes up. So $2200 does not seem so out of whack for a quality muzzleloader built by a gunsmith the quality of Mr.Hankins. He is more than just a parts assembler. He is a master gunsmith and machinist. Actually, you can get it done for under $1K. Rem 700 SA @ Wal-Mart $377 (or so I'm told) Pac-Nor Barrel $436 Dave DD CF 45ACP Plug w/Bushing $120 Total: $933
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 6, 2015 18:12:59 GMT -5
Iwh723
Did you forget a stock [smile]
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