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Post by encore50a on Dec 31, 2014 7:41:10 GMT -5
Ya, I know its been hashed over before...........
However, tomorrow a new RU is being dropped off for me to set up and develop a load. A new owner who's working to many hours, asked me if I'd help him out with his rifle. He's furnishing all the components and it appears a lot of them. Heck yeah, I jumped at the chance.
Unfortunately the scope he ordered from Cabela's didn't arrive in time, so he'll mail the scope, bases and rings when they arrive.
Will the rifle shoot accurate and group............. |
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Post by rkrobson on Dec 31, 2014 18:34:09 GMT -5
A friend has one and got it to shoot with Parker 275 BEs and a lot of Blackhorn, 160 grains volume. He said the grooves are .009, I would sure like you to confirm this George as that would be a mistake by Remington, a .518 bore? If so use the tightest sabot and those 300 grain SSTs or some other .452 bullet. Rk
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Post by encore50a on Dec 31, 2014 19:42:15 GMT -5
A friend has one and got it to shoot with Parker 275 BEs and a lot of Blackhorn, 160 grains volume. He said the grooves are .009, I would sure like you to confirm this George as that would be a mistake by Remington, a .518 bore? If so use the tightest sabot and those 300 grain SSTs or some other .452 bullet. Rk Xring had .007" groves I believe in his.
I'll give it a go. I have quite a few 300gr SST's, 300gr WM and 275gr BE's I'll also shoot from it. He's bringing up a pile of components too.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2015 12:35:51 GMT -5
wow thats some deep rifling for an inline.
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Post by encore50a on Jan 2, 2015 20:52:22 GMT -5
The RU was picked up today, as I was driving past where the owner was to buy a muzzleloader myself.
Looks like a lot of cleaning in that barrel of what ever Remington puts in them. The owner told me Cabela's mailed his scope, which he'll mail to me. We'll see if I can get it shooting.......... |
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Post by sgellis on Jan 3, 2015 11:34:29 GMT -5
My barrel id was rather tarred and feathered as well. Most definitely needed a good cleaning. Not sure if you have the B&C or laminate, but my laminate had a buggered front action screw. I needed to chase the thread to the bottom and I replaced the front action screw. Mine came out the box with the torque under 20-in/lb with insufficient thread engagement on the front screw. Already had what was needed in the shop, so it was easily corrected. Otherwise, everything looks good, but quite a few things were assembled loose at the factory. Not sure if your guy is sending you extra breech plugs, but I'll have spares. I plan to sacrifice one or two and really push the brass to its limits. Should be able to get a definitive mark at what point my particular lot of brass begins to lose its seal to effect performance. Should also get a good look at the breech plug for failure, if any, once the brass is leaking. Not sure of consistency between different lots of brass, but got it dirt cheap by the case, so the pile I have is same lot. Good Luck  |
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Post by encore50a on Jan 3, 2015 18:58:24 GMT -5
My barrel id was rather tarred and feathered as well. Most definitely needed a good cleaning. Not sure if you have the B&C or laminate, but my laminate had a buggered front action screw. I needed to chase the thread to the bottom and I replaced the front action screw. Mine came out the box with the torque under 20-in/lb with insufficient thread engagement on the front screw. Already had what was needed in the shop, so it was easily corrected. Otherwise, everything looks good, but quite a few things were assembled loose at the factory. Not sure if your guy is sending you extra breech plugs, but I'll have spares. I plan to sacrifice one or two and really push the brass to its limits. Should be able to get a definitive mark at what point my particular lot of brass begins to lose its seal to effect performance. Should also get a good look at the breech plug for failure, if any, once the brass is leaking. Not sure of consistency between different lots of brass, but got it dirt cheap by the case, so the pile I have is same lot. Good Luck I worked on the barrel for 2 hours this morning. Then I thought I'd just remove the B&C stock, take it outside, fill the barrel with gas, then bust a primer (YOU KNOW THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN). WTH did they use in there? ??
The action and barrel bolt...... may........ have been torqued to 20 in/lb. Maybe. I cleaned and lubricated the entire rifle, then reassembled the stock at 45 in/lb and now waiting for the scope and other components. This is fun to do.
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Post by sgellis on Jan 4, 2015 0:01:22 GMT -5
This is a favorite of mine, superior to the old Ed's Red. I make it gallons at a time, real cheap over the long haul. I like having a volume on hand to hose out my barreled actions on a yearly basis. Also great to dissolve shotgun wad fouling. Warning, I'd not hose out a Remington box trigger with this stuff if you add the LLA for long term storage, the LLA will give you problems with a box trigger. Use lighter fluid to hose out the box trigger. Otherwise, this stuff for most everything metal, and maybe some Sweets now and then on center-fire rifles for any neglected copper build up. This mix cut through the nasty tenacious film coating which was adhered to the barrel id of my Remington. Took only five minutes or so beginning to end.
Steve's Squeeze
1 quart deodorized mineral spirits or Exxon ClearLite fuel.
1 quart xylene
1 quart MEK
1 quart ATF or Marvel Mystery Oil
For rust protection in storage, add 4 ounces of Lee Liquid Alox per gallon.
There will be a precipitate in the bottom of the storage container. Do not
shake the storage container, pour the cleaner off the precipitate for use.
Because of the increased solvent power of Steve's Squeeze, store it in glass
or metal containers. Do not store this mixture in plastic bottles. It can
destroy plastic, and it will evaporate through the plastic. You can use
polyethylene squeeze bottles for application, but not for storage. Steve's
Squeeze is harmless to bluing and nickel plating, however it will damage
many stock finishes.
Print this label and place on the container:
RIFLE BORE CLEANER
CAUTION: HARMFUL IF SWALLOWED.
KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN
Flammable mixture, Keep away from heat, sparks or flame.
Use with adequate ventilation. Avoid breathing vapors or
spray mist. Avoid contact with skin.
Keep container tightly closed when not in use.
FIRST AID, If swallowed DO NOT induce vomiting, call a
physician immediately. In case of eye contact, immediately
flush thoroughly with water and call a physician.
In case of skin contact, wash thoroughly.
Safe compounding and use are your responsibility.
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Post by encore50a on Jan 4, 2015 18:13:54 GMT -5
I may have said this before but, an owner of a new RU asked me to setup his rifle, to which I gladly accepted the chance. I like the rifle and hope things work out for the owner.
Sorry about the poor photos.........
First thing I noticed with his stock, was the cutout in the stock for the bolt. Its certainly longer than necessary.
Then I decided to scope the barrel to find out what needed to be done before firing. Before I put the scope in the barrel, the first thing I noticed, was how they cut the lands deeper right at the end of the barrel. My suspicion is to make loading the sabot/bullet easier.
I ran the scope down the barrel and WTH??? Now nothing has been in the barrel, as this came right out of the box. However I knew the barrel needed a good cleaning before any confirmation could be made. Now if this wouldn't concern a new owner, nothing will.
I then started working that barrel. Ran a solvent patch down it, then started with the brush. I ran another solvent patch, then again started brushing. Repeated for about 45 minutes. Then after my last brushing for the evening, I ran another solvent patch both sides, then another. They started becoming cleaner, then down to a couple dry patches and they came out totally white.
Now most may not even scope a new bore or a bore at all. Looking at those clean patches, most would consider that barrel clean. This may be the mistake some owners reporting poor accuracy are doing. I scoped the barrel again and it was obvious Remington put something in that barrel and VERY hard to remove. I lubed the barrel and put it up for the night.
The next morning after I got myself together, I started back in on the rifle, spending now a total of about 2 hours, brushing and swabbing. What I initially thought may be bad rust and pitting, was being removed with no signs of rust or pits. However what ever they put in that rifle barrel, is a darn bugger to remove. Its better than I expected it would turn out but, more work is necessary. Its quite obvious in the following photo the barrel needs more cleaning, to get that black gunk out.
I lubricated the barrel again and will start back brushing again. I've received a couple recommendations on how to clean it faster and easier..... without the stock on the barrel.
I wanted to lubricate the entire rifle and when I started to remove the action and barrel bolts, it was evident they were never torqued properly. I'd bet the weren't tight to 20 in/lbs. Removed the bolts, then removed the trigger guard and plate. Set that aside, then removed the stock. I noticed a mark on the barrel, obviously from the ramrod seating, the other where the action bolts. I'll look over why that ramrod marks the barrel next time cleaning......
I lubricated the entire barrel an action, then it was time to reassemble the rifle. When I picked up the trigger guard and plate, I noticed what I first though may be a paper shim WHAT?! It fit perfectly under the assembly on top the stock. However after my initial shock of finding it, it most likely is a piece someone in a hurry didn't see during assembly. I hope..
Tomorrow I'll remove the stock, set that aside, then spray a patch with de-greaser and swab the barrel, then brush. Yes, I'll make sure the barrel is well lubricated when finished. The owner's scope didn't arrive in time, so he will be sending that probably after next weekend. By that time, I should have the barrel spic and span. He ordered a Leupold VX3 4.5-15x50 with the CDS turret. One piece base and Leupold standard rings. Once I receive and install the scope, the bench is right out back
The owner has asked that I share the entire process, so others may learn and/or others may suggest.
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Post by sgellis on Jan 4, 2015 22:44:23 GMT -5
I doubt Remington cleaned the barrel after testing, but I believe they apply a varnish like rust inhibitor that is near the same as used by Ziebart Co. to rustproof automobiles, which is also used to protect naval machinery on the decks of ships against salt spray. A modern day improvement over the old cosmolene grease. The solvent I noted above will dissolve and thin this varnish, so it should take less mechanical action to remove. Yours seems on par with mine, loose screws and tarred barrel, which may very well cause accuracy issues if ignored. On mine, so much was assembled loose that I went ahead and re-torqued the breech plug to play it safe. Good Luck |
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Post by 10ga on Jan 5, 2015 12:05:50 GMT -5
Not what you'd call out of the box ready and accurate.
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Post by sgellis on Jan 5, 2015 17:46:53 GMT -5
Mine was definitely NOT turn key out the box, but HOLY COW this rifle shoots!! I wasn't happy with the factory stock fit, so I bedded the stock with marine-tex gray, and it now holds torque well without binding. Other than that, and replacing the front action screw, the rifle just needed a good LTI. Intent is for CO elk, but temporarily borrowed the scope off my Sako and first three shots sandbagged for groups at 100 yards were a tight cloverleaf. Very happy with how it shoots.
Based on measurements off the factory installed Williams Guide peep rear and .0750 bead front, I suspected that they would be unworkable. Re-installed the peep sights, and I was correct, too low, not enough adjustment for correction. I shimmed the rear, but not enough, Remington goofed up those measurements. Though they did not have enough adjustment to zero, I was still able shoot some very respectable groups at 100 yards. The bead subtends about 8-inches, so it was easy to hold about a minute of angle with a slightly larger contrasting bull. It's a shame that the max height for these factory sights are too low to obtain a useable zero.
I'll figure out tomorrow if I have enough room to shim the rear sight body to center up, if not, will need to change front sight height. I didn't have time to go beyond 100 yards, but next time out I'll push things further with the scope. I may go down to a .0625 bead and should be golden with the peep sight out to about 200 yards or so, once regulated. But for now, using Blackhorn 209 in the 91 to 98 grains weight range (130 to 140 grains volume), she shoots very well. Hope that new Federal "non-sabot" muzzleloader bullet works out as well.
Later
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Post by scalian on Jan 5, 2015 17:52:33 GMT -5
great thread and lots of info
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Post by jims on Jan 5, 2015 20:01:47 GMT -5
Well done on the photos and report.
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Post by encore50a on Jan 5, 2015 20:08:42 GMT -5
Never seen anything like it. I worked this barrel today and my butt off. Stock on the other side of the room............. I tried mineral spirits, NOTHING. Then I tried the NAPA Premium De-Greaser, NOTHING.
Called Remington, put the phone on hands free and worked another 45 minutes while waiting for them to answer. Finally hit "1" and gave my number for a call back. Cleaned the rifle, bench and all equipment, then lubricated the inside and outside of the barrel. Put the stock on and torqued the bolts and put it in the safe. While picking up the last of everything, the phone rang. REMINGTON!
Remington wants the rifle returned to re-barrel it. The owner will be making arrangements soon. AT least it will end up with one of the later produced barrels....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2015 0:53:27 GMT -5
that stinks
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Post by sgellis on Jan 6, 2015 16:52:46 GMT -5
Sorry you ran into such troubles. Might be good thing for re-barrel, sounds like you ran a lifetime of brush strokes down the barrel over a few days, even if you cleaned it out, hard to think the edge of the rifling and crown didn't take on some wear.
That engine degreaser works well to degrease an engine block, but next go around, I'd suggest trying something that attacks varnish, resins, and plastics. That solvent I use has a high content of ethyl methyl ketone and xylene, in addition to the mineral spirits. The mineral spirits is used to dissolve and thin the alox, but the other stuff attacks the plastics, resins, and varnish. I let mine soak heavy for about 5 to maybe 10 minutes tops and the varnish coating dissolved. Not sure what you would have different in that bad barrel, but I'd probably pull the breech plug and run a good brush one direction out the muzzle if there ends up a need to go heavy on the mechanical action next go around. I've had no build up since that initial cleaning, just the normal thin layer of Blackhorn residue. Loading is smooth and fairly easy throughout shot strings, no swabbing between shots.
Side note, going to machine a spacer to correct the height on the peep sight. Made a temporary test fit, think it will look good and run well. If it doesn't work out, called my buddy in TX (manufactures sights)for a backup plan, and he has an alternative drop in peep that is the perfect height. May go that route anyway, his sights are probably a bit tougher than the factory Williams.
Keep us posted, GOOD LUCK!!!
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Post by sgellis on Jan 6, 2015 17:35:36 GMT -5
Added suggestion, you may not care or have a need for a large volume of solvent, I make it in 5-gallon lots, and the smallest amount you could make would be a full gallon. A good alternative for attacking the plastics, resins, and varnish, and you may already have some on hand if you work much with Acraglas, use some Brownells Acraglas solvent and thinner. It dissolves and thins Acraglas resins, and you can buy it by the quart. Good to keep on hand if you're working much with Acraglas, Marine-tex, etc.
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Post by sgellis on Jan 8, 2015 11:26:23 GMT -5
 My first three shots sandbagged for groups at 100 yards. The varnish came out the barrel and I see no issues with the bore, it shoots well. Not sure why the varnished "packing grease" would differ in your barrel from mine, but I appear to have a good barrel, that is not finicky, is easy to load, and shoots consistent groups. My only negative is the height combination for the fixed sights. Have an old "new in box" Lyman 57 that I tried, and am tempted, but believe I'd be happier with a more compact receiver sight for hunting. Could not locate any spare rear bases at the shop, so one was placed on order. When it comes in, the bottom of the Williams and the top of the base will be machined flat to mate and mount at the corrected height. If that doesn't work out as I'd like, will call buddy in TX and have him send me up one of his sights. Later |
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Post by jims on Jan 8, 2015 16:40:29 GMT -5
If it shoots like that consistently you have a keeper for sure.
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Post by miketodd58 on Jan 10, 2015 12:02:31 GMT -5
My first three shots sandbagged for groups at 100 yards. The varnish came out the barrel and I see no issues with the bore, it shoots well. Not sure why the varnished "packing grease" would differ in your barrel from mine, but I appear to have a good barrel, that is not finicky, is easy to load, and shoots consistent groups. My only negative is the height combination for the fixed sights. Have an old "new in box" Lyman 57 that I tried, and am tempted, but believe I'd be happier with a more compact receiver sight for hunting. Could not locate any spare rear bases at the shop, so one was placed on order. When it comes in, the bottom of the Williams and the top of the base will be machined flat to mate and mount at the corrected height. If that doesn't work out as I'd like, will call buddy in TX and have him send me up one of his sights. Later That's a nice group! WOW |
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Post by hankinsrfls on Jan 10, 2015 14:26:17 GMT -5
Yes it is... What does it measure? Jeff
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Post by sgellis on Jan 12, 2015 13:52:51 GMT -5
Did not take accurate measurements. Still have the target, but I kept taping over the groups to re-use the target. I'd expect the target is too shot up at this point to measure. I had a 1" wide roll of tape at the butts, so I was using that as a guide to determine if the groups were over, at, or under an inch. I have a limited supply of the 275BE, so I didn't shoot many groups with that bullet, saving those for when I stretch it out further. I had several different bullets group right at an inch, but none as tight as the Parker. Not sure if the 250s or 300s would fair as well, but I did see a test performed by American Rifleman with the same rifle when it was their Gun of the Week. Don't recall the best and worst groups, but the overall group average was 0.89" using the 250BE.
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Post by encore50a on Feb 25, 2015 10:34:22 GMT -5
Well its official. Remington told the owner of the rifle in those barrel photos, that his barrel was junk. Surprised???
Remington would not give an explanation, other than it was definitely a defective barrel and would require replacement.
Remington told the owner that they were trying to expedite his repairs but....... they were in an inventory process and couldn't come up with the parts ?
The owner told Remington that he wanted his money back and that he didn't want the rifle back. It appears Remington is working on that, but probably doing an "inventory process" on that too.
I believe I may have mentioned that it was a bad barrel, somewhere along the line................
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Post by 10ga on Feb 25, 2015 14:03:28 GMT -5
Just how does a barrel like that get inspected, installed, tested if any??, wrapped, bagged, put in a styrofoam block, inserted NIB with attendant "paperwork", shipped to jobber then a retailer and retailed to a customer?
JMHO but I don't think NULA, Cooper, Swinglock, Hankins Custom, HillBill, Fishhawk, or Rossman would let a product like that out the door. $ for a custom rifle to fit what you want looks cheap compared to some of the FUBAR that happens to some of the commercial producers. Heck Savage even replaced bad barrels PDQ when they were producing MLIIs. I'd expect some type of "debriefing" when something bad happens but not the runaround stories I've seen on the current state of Big Green. I certainly wish Rem could get back to the quality of service and product they put out 30 years ago.
I have a bunch of Rem products but now I usually buy used, they are better than the current new production. I don't wish them ill but quality at a good price is like accuracy, most important. I certainly like my new to me 870 special field, only the current production Browning Special Field is like it in finish, fit and quality. However I like the side ejection of the 870 and anything like it in quality and design is not available on the market currently.
OK, enough rambling and not to hijack the thread with a rant. 10 ga
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Post by hawghunter on Feb 25, 2015 18:12:00 GMT -5
Thanks for the update. Remington should just give up on selling muzzleloading rifles and just sell bare 700mls actions with bolts.
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Post by frontiergander on Feb 25, 2015 18:21:41 GMT -5
IMO 1 barrel does not make them all bad. I think its been drawn out much to long.
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Post by encore50a on Feb 25, 2015 19:18:48 GMT -5
IMO 1 barrel does not make them all bad. I think its been drawn out much to long. Evidently this is the only one you've read about. Many of those barrels have had to be replaced, taking up to 12+ weeks, just to do a 20 minute barrel change. Remington let a bad bunch of barrels hit the market. They've been returned for refunds and traded in for different muzzleloaders, ending up on the "used" rack. Here's another "screwup" you must not have read.
dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/16953/remington-700-ultimate-another-screwup
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Post by frontiergander on Feb 25, 2015 19:28:06 GMT -5
so much for the quality control. Must be an ex cva employee?  |
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Post by sgellis on Feb 28, 2015 17:18:24 GMT -5
IMO 1 barrel does not make them all bad. I think its been drawn out much to long. Evidently this is the only one you've read about. Many of those barrels have had to be replaced, taking up to 12+ weeks, just to do a 20 minute barrel change. Remington let a bad bunch of barrels hit the market. They've been returned for refunds and traded in for different muzzleloaders, ending up on the "used" rack. Here's another "screwup" you must not have read.
dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/16953/remington-700-ultimate-another-screwup
That guy expressed that his Remington was the single most accurate ML he'd ever shot. Sounds like his had a good barrel. "After a day at the range I became quite surprised as I put together groups like I had never achieved with a ML before, heck I would be happy from any gun with the results I achieved. I was a happy Remington customer" Reference your friend's barrel, my opinion that gun would likely have shot exceedingly well, like most the others, but, you were hell bent for leather to royally screw up that barrel without firing a single shot. You've never owned one of these guns, you've never shot one of these guns, you've never hunted with one of these guns, and you have no first hand knowledge of anything involving one of these guns. Yet, most every single one of those alleged bad barrel stories, you note, which are reported all over the web on just about every web ML forum, have come through you. Heck, you were talking about this muzzleloader having a bad barrel back when the pre-production guns were being tested by gunwriters before being sold to the public. Like I said earlier, you went into this thing with an agenda which has clouded everything involving your friend's gun. It is just odd how you spend so much time and go to such extremes to embellish the most minor details on a piece of equipment which you have absolute zero investment, other than having an internet fight with that Randy Wakeman guy over his insults about the particular gun you do own. Any statements you make on the matter as a body of evidence would be impeached. |
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