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Post by kbrezlin on Dec 20, 2014 14:20:15 GMT -5
Testing out the 10MLII conversion to a Pacnor 45 tomorrow and it will be the first try at sabotless. I've got the swing lock adjustable die and I need to size down some SSTs to start with. Does anybody else use the barrel drop for a test fit instead of pushing bullets down the barrel? First go at sizing bullets later tonight also.
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Post by 7mmfreak on Dec 20, 2014 14:40:46 GMT -5
I use the whole barrel because not all barrels are even. My McGowen had a tight spot about 1/3 of the way down the bore. If I had just used the drop I would not have known. As a result my barrel went back for additional lapping.
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Post by rambler on Dec 20, 2014 14:50:13 GMT -5
i use my drop to get close but I also run a cpl bullets thru the entire length of the barrel just to make sure. Be careful using those bullets again because they will need to be indexed with the barrel as they will have slight engravings on them from the lands and grooves.
If you have a drop I recommend getting a FF die if funds permit.
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Post by Richard on Dec 20, 2014 16:08:24 GMT -5
Just my opinion...............the amount of "engraving" will not mean a thing. (you will probably not even be able to feel it with your fingernail) Run it back thru the die or knurl it a little and run thru the die if your worried? But yes, I do use my drop to initially check for fit. It will get you very close. To prove what I am saying, run a few bullets down the bore after sizing and save them for the range. Then shoot some bullets that have no "engraving" and those with engraving and see if there is any difference? Then you will know "Been there done this!" Richard
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Post by rambler on Dec 20, 2014 16:26:10 GMT -5
Just my opinion...............the amount of "engraving" will not mean a thing. (you will probably not even be able to feel it with your fingernail) Run it back thru the die or knurl it a little and run thru the die if your worried? But yes, I do use my drop to initially check for fit. It will get you very close. To prove what I am saying, run a few bullets down the bore after sizing and save them for the range. Then shoot some bullets that have no "engraving" and those with engraving and see if there is any difference? Then you will know "Been there done this!" Richard I would take Richard's advice. He definitely knows his stuff
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Post by kbrezlin on Dec 20, 2014 21:08:22 GMT -5
Thanks. I sized up 20 bullets to test tomorrow. The drop got me very close and then I tested a few the full length of the barrel. One hand and even pressure the length of the barrel, possibly just a touch less at the very start of the muzzle. Well see what happens when it gets some fouling.
Since this was my first time sizing bullets I gave a Barnes 290TEZ a shot through the die. It would go down the drop with some resistance so I sized it so it would drop through as a test just to see how hard it would be. I really did not notice any difference in the Barnes verses the SST through the die. I had read where the all coppers were hard to push through the die. Maybe that was full forming them?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 21:14:44 GMT -5
What you read was misinformation. Barnes TEZ are not solid copper. They smooth size easier and with less springback then jacketed FTX's.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 21:15:01 GMT -5
Once you shoot some that onehand loading will turn to two..which will work well accuracy wise ,just giving you heads up on ramrod gripititous,lol....
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Post by 7mmfreak on Dec 21, 2014 8:58:44 GMT -5
I guess if I had really thought about my answer, my drop is in my die. I guess that means I have always used my drop to set up my die. I have never done any smooth sizing so my answer was not very helpful in this case.
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Post by bestill on Dec 21, 2014 15:21:44 GMT -5
What you read was misinformation. Barnes TEZ are not solid copper. They smooth size easier and with less springback then jacketed FTX's. Barnes are not 100% copper? Please explain i understand they soft copper!
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Post by rambler on Dec 21, 2014 15:40:12 GMT -5
What you read was misinformation. Barnes TEZ are not solid copper. They smooth size easier and with less springback then jacketed FTX's. Barnes are not 100% copper? Please explain i understand they soft copper! This is what their website states:
Barnes’ NEW Spit-Fire T-EZ muzzleloader bullets load easier, even in tight bores. A new sabot reduces the ramrod pressure required to load and seat these .50-caliber, flat-base bullets. T-EZ bullets deliver the same match-grade accuracy all Barnes’ MZ bullets are famous for. The 100% copper bullets feature a polymer tip that enhances expansion and boosts BC for superior long-range ballistics. They expand at both close and extended range, creating six razor-edge cutting petals that maximize shock and penetration.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 15:45:54 GMT -5
What you read was misinformation. Barnes TEZ are not solid copper. They smooth size easier and with less springback then jacketed FTX's. Barnes are not 100% copper? Please explain i understand they soft copper! They are not solid copper is what I posted. I'm actually glad ya quoted me as I never made reference or mentioned anything about 100% copper. They go through an annealing process or they would not expand like they do. The TEZ, TMZ, MZ lines are not solid copper.
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Post by bestill on Dec 21, 2014 15:47:15 GMT -5
That is what i thought but ive seen stated they are not 100% copper?
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Post by bestill on Dec 21, 2014 15:50:08 GMT -5
Guess my brain isn't working. What is differs100% copper vs solid copper?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 15:58:00 GMT -5
One shooter likes to mention they are solid copper and implies they are hard to get to obturate. Mentioning solid copper also gets people thinking they are hard to size. Thats totally false info that gets read and taken as truth. I'm no metal expert but I have sized both Barnes and an actual solid copper bullet. Barnes are soft compared to an actual solid copper bullet. Barnes does make a solid copper line of bullets. Google that one up to post Rambler.
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Post by Richard on Dec 21, 2014 16:03:41 GMT -5
Being the Doubting Thomas that I am, I chucked one up in the lathe and ran a drill bit from the base thru the plastic blue nose tip on a Barnes 290 TEZ and the only thing that came out was COPPER! Richard
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Post by rambler on Dec 21, 2014 16:52:27 GMT -5
One shooter likes to mention they are solid copper and implies they are hard to get to obturate. Mentioning solid copper also gets people thinking they are hard to size. Thats totally false info that gets read and taken as truth. I'm no metal expert but I have sized both Barnes and an actual solid copper bullet. Barnes are soft compared to an actual solid copper bullet. Barnes does make a solid copper line of bullets. Google that one up to post Rambler. Don't shoot the messenger
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 17:23:44 GMT -5
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Post by kbrezlin on Dec 21, 2014 19:41:37 GMT -5
I cut one in half and it was all copper. So back to the question of why they are easier to size. Could it be they are annealed so they expand? I understand the some of the bullets that are made from copper alloy, i.e. gilded metal or jacket material, are very hard like the GMX. Hornady told me that you would probably have trouble trying to push them through a die.
On the testing today for my first try they loaded and shot pretty well, until the 13th shot didn't go off. It was cold, 34 deg, and I was using 63 grains of Rel7 I had already measured out for saboted in the 50 and a 0.060 veggie wad. Bullet went halfway down the barrel and stopped. I'm going to give it another shot with boosted loads on the next go round.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 21:39:52 GMT -5
A Hornady .452 Monoflex is very tough to smooth size. I wanted to size them to .449. I got one thru a 451 die then went to a .450 die and was a no go! A 250 FTX springs back more then a 250 Parker BE due to jacket thickness. I can size a 250 BE thru a .450 die and it loads nice in my MGM barrel. Sizing a 250 FTX thru same die will not even start. Size a 250 TEZ thru same die and it falls down the bore.
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Post by edge on Dec 22, 2014 12:50:24 GMT -5
FYI, those are BRASS, not copper! Copper bullets are not all the same as far as hardness is concerned, and copper can also be work hardened. I guess I was confused as to the meaning of "SOLID" The Barnes TEZ is ALL Copper ,except for the tip, but are not "Solid" copper bullets meaning that they have a hollow point...( not African solid bullets ) semantics edge.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 13:31:26 GMT -5
My link says its a copper/zinc alloy. If thats brass good to know. I am not a metal expert but why do they not say brass?
Not all coppers are created equal. A Barnes 250 TEZ is soft compared to a SOLID copper 240gr Cuttjng Edge. Barnes are annealed copper making it soft and Cutting Edges are not. Solid copper, all copper. Two different terms in my mind.
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Post by edge on Dec 22, 2014 15:23:46 GMT -5
My link says its a copper/zinc alloy. If thats brass good to know. SNIP. A lot of folks call 360 brass 60/40 ( copper / zinc ) but there is a few percent lead and some trace metals too. It is inexpensive and very easy to machine. edge.
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Post by jims on Dec 22, 2014 15:40:22 GMT -5
Similar to wood at times, all wood versus solid wood. I guess it pays to know the nomenclature but it can be confusing at times, certainly was to me.
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Post by kbrezlin on Dec 22, 2014 16:35:06 GMT -5
Copper or copper alloy they are able to be sized and that was the main concern. They are defiantly different in appearance than the Barnes solids I had loaded in a 45/70 for a cougar hunt.
Thanks for the information.
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Post by edge on Dec 22, 2014 19:32:29 GMT -5
Copper or copper alloy they are able to be sized and that was the main concern. SNIP. NO, they are not the same at all! Copper is from very soft to pretty hard. Copper alloy ( Brass ) is hard to very hard... think mild steel! From a machining standpoint copper is almost too soft and without some coolant it sticks to the tool like aluminum, it galls and sizing is problematic. Brass can be machined without coolant. It holds size well and heat leaves in the chip nicely. The brasses and bronzes are among the easiest materials to machine and hold a good tolerance with. edge.
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