Pressure traces: 45 cal barrels: What caliber to trace?

[TGinPA]

I’m trying to decide whether or not to trace with a sub 45cal (.375-.416) barrel. It’s not so easy because there are a number of possibilities. I would be interested in trying to get some input (consensus?) as to which caliber should be traced 1st and why it would be best? Among considerations might be:
1) Purpose (long range target or hunting) which group is larger?
2) Bullet weight, BC, availability, and cost.
3) Barrel length and contour based on increased pressure/velocity needs.
4) Barrel availability, twist and cost of fabrication.
Other questions might include:
1) Ignition system?
2) Platform? Since I have a small shank Savage action, will that be enough? If not what platform and why.
3) Due to need for larger quantities of slower burning powders, is there need for a chamber? If so, what dimensions?
4) Need for of ancillary equipment, sizing dies, seating jag and ramrod.
5) Choice of a calibration load?
Any advice here will be greatly appreciated.
TG

[jims]

There certainly are not a lot of .375s or .416s out there. I appreciate you would consider this. There certainly are centerfire bullets available in those calibers, obviously bullets not based on pistol bullets so that might be interesting.
I would be willing to donate various .375 and 9.3mm land riders for various testing if that would help, others might do so for the .416.
Some consideration might be given to what States allow, some have a minimum caliber requirement.
I have a .375 based on a small shank Savage. It has no powder chamber and a long powder column.
I will even go this far, I would be willing to send you the Krieger 28 inch .375 small shank barrel and smooth and full form dies and some bullets and you could test away at your leisure but I would eventually want that all back (less bullets of course) and again of course after you have found loads that shoot one hole groups. lol
I have the spin jag that is needed, I could set you up.
The next issue is that it is hard on vent liners, probably a bushing would be preferable. I also have a load I have used but unfortunately is uses V 140 which is not the easiest to use.
That being said it was used in another area to take some deer by another and it did not kill the deer any deader and actually not as effectively as my more standard calibers of .40 to .50.
That is my offer and I am sticking with it. Let me know. I have wads etc., pretty much everything good to go.
No brake on this particular barrel although I have one available but this barrel is not threaded for it. I think the first 5 inches or so are full size over an inch with a gradual tapaer. More stock than on a .50 as the hole is 1/8 smaller and bigger before taper but the pressure rise on the smaller calibers is a fair amount more IMO. There it is. If you get a better offer or desire not to do this I can understand.

[Dave W]

I would suggest adding a poll with the three calibers you are considering and people can vote and add their comments also.
You have my thoughts already. I think the .375 & .40 has a more diverse offering of those three you mentioned. Light bullets and heavy high BC bullets are already available, just need CEB or another maker to fill in the 300gr bullet range on the 40 cal.

[Jon]

I've already been talking with you. I just got a chance to get a ML1 to replace my one I'm using for a build. As soon as possible I'll be getting in touch with Swing lock for a smooth die. I don't want to lose an in. of barrel to make a FF die unless it is necessary.

[Deleted]

X2 on the 375 and 40.

[Deleted]

Not many responses to this so I'll add mine.

I think that 40 is most logical, probably legal in more states than the 375. I think with the builds that will be popping up shortly in the .392 and .408, there will be several members that head that direction on their next build. The newest 40's are all shooting great and that alone is appealing to the masses.

That being said I also think that the .375 is going to be incredibly popular, it just makes sense. It's a popular cf cartridge caliber and there are tons of bullets available for a fraction of the specialty bullets we are all used to paying for. Even boattails are appearing to shoot extremely well, contrary to prior experiences. Grain for grain the bullets in a .375 are going to have considerably better BC than the 45's and the 40's that are currently available. A high bc 40 is inevitable, but when it gets here we will pay top bucks for it.

I know there is a great following in the 416 but the guys using it are probably more likely to be thrill seekers and probably won't be swayed by a lack of traced data. Same can be said for the .375 guys looking for maximum performance. Maybe others don't agree but when I decided to do a .375 I didn't give it second thought that there wasn't any data for it. When I considered the .416 I was willing to go it in no mans land also.

If you want to use a .375 on an action other than a small shank savage let me know and I will supply one for testing purposes.

[lakeplainshunter]

My vote is for .40 as that is most likely my next build.

[mcgowen45]

Well since i got both calibers, and the 40 cals. that I have shoot great with the duplex I use, and since there is not to much data on the .375. I would suggest so traces on the 375 caliber. I' still going back and forth with mine, but it shoot great with H4895. So my vote would be for the 375.

[markb317]

My vote would be for the .40 caliber, I think guys are more likely to build one because they can use the same bullets that would be used in a .45 with sabots.

[rob67]

I have a .40 and a .375. I would like to see both of them traced with the .375 done first.
I don't know how much time, trouble and expense is involved in tracing a different caliber.
I will gladly send some money for bullets and powder and other expenses.
Thanks for considering these calibers.

[lakeplainshunter]

Dec 20, 2014 0:31:42 GMT -5 markb317 said:

My vote would be for the .40 caliber, I think guys are more likely to build one because they can use the same bullets that would be used in a .45 with sabots.

+1 I am looking to shoot the 195 gr BX. Out to 200 yards it will be perfect for me where I hunt.

[jims]

This is a selfish vote for me. I vote for the .375 for this reason alone, my .40 already shoots well and there are proven loads that RB and sw and deadeye provided. My .375 is still pretty experimental in my mind but offers more potential overall. On the other hand, I would have suspected there were more .40s out there that might want the testing.
Whatever caliber is chosen, even the .416, all testing will be greatly appreciated. That is why this is THE site.

[deadeye]

I don't really have a dog in this one as I have a .40 & a swell load for it. but I still have interest in our unknown pressures in other calibers.

my question to tg is do you have multiple action guns for the barrels or would he have to change out barrels when changing calibers etc? changing out could be cumbersome but if equipped & willing to do so would be his call.

if you go .40 I will donate 200 sst blems & wool wads to help the project along.

I missed the last donation due to being away from the board for a day but the cup was already full.

this board moves along fast sometimes & that is a good thing. imo

[hayman]

My vote would be .375 since I have a barrel on order. I would be more than glad to donate bullets or money to the cause.

[hankinsrfls]

Get two barrels. One 375 and one 416 or whatever.., and get a Remington 700 short action. I will thread both barrels to fit the same action, and install my ignition system. Then you can have a switch barrel gun and test whatever you want... Jeff

[Deleted]

If you decide to go Jeff's route I will donate a .375 barrel to the cause

[fishhawk]

Jeff is putting a .375 together for me. It will have a powder chamber. I would send the whole gun, but it is a centerfire action, unless Ralph has a ffl?

[jims]

TG: You certainly have a variety of choices.

[Deleted]

I would like to see some traces done on the 40 cals. I rely on Myers129 running QL now.

I will donate some 240gr Cutting Edges. Heck if TGinPA is from PA maybe I can meet up and watch his work in action if not too far away.

[Jon]

45omega. Where in Pa. are you located? I'm just outside Allentown.

[Deleted]

Allentown is about 2hrs from me. I'm south of York.

[Jon]

I know about where your at. I went to HVAC school in York many years ago. What ranges to you have out your way? Anything in the 600 to 1000 yard range?

[Deleted]

I shoot at the IWLA and its only 200yds. There are a few others close by but not 600yd that I know of.

[Jon]

Thanks I just looking The longest I've found with in an hour of me goes to 300yds.

[squeeze]

Ive been wanting to build a .35 or .357 for coyote and varminting. (started with a desire for a fast twist .36, but evolved after research, plus barrel availability and pricing) Ill be watching this with interest

[TGinPA]

I am very grateful for the overwhelming amount of volunteered support that has been offered. It makes it hard to decide which way to go.
Before getting into more than I can handle, I want to try to anticipate and plan for what may require significant effort on the part of myself and those who have volunteered their willingness to help support it.
Here are a few preliminary observations as to what has been posted. Feel free to disagree or agree with any of it:
1) There is interest in all 3 calibers with volunteered contribution to getting data for all 3.
2) So far, most of the posted interest seems equally divided btw .375 and .40 caliber as places to go first.
3) .375 has (IMO) the most potential from a ballistical standpoint.
4) This is new territory and we have to start somewhere. IMO, keeping things simple at the start may make ironing out bumps in the road which are bound to occur easier. Jims has a ready to use .375 barrel loaner with bushing plug, FF dies and all accessories that if he still agrees, could be shipped without need for FFL, making this a very attractive option as a starting point and which would fit right into the setup I presently have with minimal modification. Depending on how things worked out with this initial test would then determine how to proceed, with some options being use of one or both of the other 2 calibers, a chamber, and Jeff’s ignition system and so on. From my previous experiences, I would think that I might need 3-6 months to get enough numbers to make sense out of any caliber. Would jims be willing to lend me his barrel for that much time?
5) Availability of powder, bullets and supplies may be a problem, especially powder. To get started, I have enough I4350, RL7, 10x, H322, H4831, Varget, H4895, I3031, (I can get I4064) and numerous faster burning powders which might be needed should ignition problems happen. Is that adequate?
6) The major problem for all 3 is what loads to use for calibrating the tracing setup. In setting up calibration, there is a significant subjective component. In its calculation algorithm, the pressure tracing apparatus I use contains a constant based upon the elasticity modulus for barrel grade chrome-moly steel. This is not the same as the elasticity modulus for 416 stainless. So that when tracing from a gage placed on a SS barrel, RSI suggests that a correction factor of +2-3kpsi must be plugged into the program. Even with this, the calculated pressure may be significantly below what published numbers would suggest as being appropriate, making this plugged in correction highly subjective and based on what the tracer thinks the number should be, based on published data (where it exists). Some tracing data is available for both 45 and 50cal, making calibration based on those numbers straightforward with the explicit warning given to all as to what load is used and pressure measured as its basis. But for the 3 calibers under consideration, the only published numbers with traces I could find are for .416 and that data is limited to loads beyond pressures (mid 50kpsi) we are presently interested in testing (or is it?). Having said that, having preexisting trace data for calibration is a huge benefit in favor of tracing .416 first. For the 3 caliber ranges of interest at present, looking online and through reloading handbooks, it’s not easy to find maximum (by SAAMI or CIP standards) loads in the (mid 45kpsi) pressure range in these calibers that would serve as a calibration load. That leaves only Quickload as a source. One problem with Quickload is that though it may often agree with trace results, sometimes it does not and I can’t predict when that will happen. So, while it’s nice when Quickload agrees with traces, it is troubling when it doesn’t and makes me uneasy to use it as a basis for a calibration load. I have located a bunch of loads for 9.3x57mm which appear to be in the right pressure range which may be useful?? Some on this board have been at this spot before and may be able to recall how RB and those working with him established calibration numbers for their traces? If so, it might be useful for me and anyone else contemplating use of pressure tracing equipment to use the same approach at this time? Are there known loads with established pressures/velocities which might be used?

Again thanks for all the interest and input.
TG (Ralph)

[Deleted]

TG, if it gets to a point where we could trace the 40, if...I would be willing to volunteer a .392/.400, the full form die and some 200 SST's, 195 Barnes and some 240 CEB's, so you could do a run on a full form 40 cal. Then maybe someone could loan in a 400/408 and do some traces on it, to see how a full form 40 cal compares to a land rider 40 cal. Just food for thought.
I have great interest in the 375 traces, so if that's where we go first, I'm happy with that as well.
Thanks for all you do.
Guy

[rob67]

I was trying to think of how you can come up with a bench mark to calibrate your equipment with. With the .392/400 there is nothing out there. With the .375 could you base it off of .375 H&H magnum loads? Lets say that you had a .375 H&H mag centerfire with a stainless barrel loaded with a compressed load of a powder that is suitable in a sml would that work?

Either way .40 or .375 I am in for helping you help us. THANK YOU FOR ALL YOU HAVE DONE ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jims]

I just got home recently and the first chance to read. My offer stands and you are correct that my barrel is stainless. You could have it for as long as needed, even if it was not back by next hunting season as I have substitutes. I can give you the loads I shot BUT they were never pressure tested so they could be wrong to start, they were based off the 9.3m as I recall however.
One correction, my breechplug uses vent liners and eats them fairly quickly. I would pay for the bushing conversion if that made the project easier. Would you want that done on this end or would one do that there on the BP.
As mentioned my offer is there but it is just an offer, if the .40 or other platforms work better now for you that is fine. Just offering.
If you decide to use what I have let me know so I could package the stuff up, spin the barrel off etc. Of course I would need your address etc.
No hurry, weigh all the inputs etc. and decide what is best for you and all on this site.

[Deleted]

.416, .40,.375 they are all good. personally the .416 and .375 perks my interest as I have the .416 and plan to do a .375 in the near future...