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Post by norseman1 on Dec 17, 2014 15:30:40 GMT -5
Hi,I am new to the forum and know nothing about smokeless muzzle loaders,but am willing to learn.I have good luck using sabots in my Encore and Omega out to 200 yards.The main thing driving me to smokeless is the cost and availability of Blackhorn 209.If I can get some extra yardage out of it that would be cool too.I really like the idea of the new Remington Ultimate MZ,but you are again stuck with using BH209.Accuracy wise I can not complain out to 200 yards I can hit my 12" backyard gong off my sticks about 90% of the time.I am a long time reloader and to tell you the truth muzzle loading is not cheap.I can load my 458 Win .mag for quite a bit less money,but can`t use it during MZ only seasons.So here I am.Have at it!!!
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Post by Richard on Dec 17, 2014 15:49:24 GMT -5
Sabots are subject to failure when the temperatures go up. Two many shots in a row during warm weather without proper cool down and you blow the sabot. Not so without the sabot. In .45 cal. you have a wider range of bullets available. You can shoot .458 diameter bullets with full form sizing, any of the .451/2 bullets without a sabot and any of the .40 cal. bullets (generally the 195 Barnes along with the 200 XTP and SST's) with sabots. Even those 150, 170, 180 gr. pistol bullets. A lot more but my fingers would be numb from typing. Just peruse back thru the pages and see the results. Richard
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Post by vpimine on Dec 18, 2014 0:03:45 GMT -5
+1 for what Richard said.
For me, sabotless shooting made muzzleloaders much more fun and interesting. Shot almost any 45 cal bullet and not have to wait between shots. A lot more shooting and less waiting.
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Post by bigmoose on Dec 18, 2014 7:38:49 GMT -5
No waiting between shots.
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Post by 03mossy on Dec 18, 2014 8:30:52 GMT -5
All the cool kids are doing it.
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Post by cuda on Dec 18, 2014 8:44:52 GMT -5
I have both a 45 and 50. I like that some of the 45 barrels do not need sizing with the all cooper bullet. The 45 sabot less is the easiest to get tight group right away. And they are lighter than the 10ML-ll.
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Post by rambler on Dec 18, 2014 9:38:12 GMT -5
All the cool kids are doing it. +1
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Post by zakjak221 on Dec 18, 2014 10:30:20 GMT -5
I used to b cool,according to my son's.
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Post by ported45 on Dec 18, 2014 11:02:13 GMT -5
But sabotless starts eating the ventliners a lot quicker than shooting with sabots?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2014 11:04:35 GMT -5
Yes, but there isn't much reason to not go with a bushing plug and forget about it almost indefinitely now.
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Post by Richard on Dec 18, 2014 13:26:17 GMT -5
And anyway, bushing plugs come under the category of "cool!" Richard
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Post by edge on Dec 18, 2014 14:19:22 GMT -5
BUT The negatives are more recoil and/or lower BC bullets. edge.
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Post by norseman1 on Dec 18, 2014 20:57:24 GMT -5
Thanks for the replys.
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Post by jlr454s on Dec 18, 2014 22:11:34 GMT -5
Where would one get a Bushing plug to fit Savage ML II? And what is the maintenance with a bushing plug? I wanna be cool too
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2014 22:13:35 GMT -5
BUT The negatives are more recoil and/or lower BC bullets. edge. How are match hunters lower bc bullets..? I agree recoil is increased because a higher bc bullet is being shot,lol.....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2014 22:15:56 GMT -5
Edge is having his cake and eating it too! His saboted bullets are lighter (less recoil) and actual rifle bullets (better BC). Grain for grain a .40 should be capable of higher bc than 45 of the same weight.
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Post by bigmoose on Dec 18, 2014 22:29:13 GMT -5
Are you saying sabotless generates more recoil?
My 400gr load in my 50 puts out 42lbs of recoil, what 45 cal sabotless equals that?
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Post by hankinsrfls on Dec 18, 2014 22:33:45 GMT -5
BUT The negatives are more recoil and/or lower BC bullets. edge. How are match hunters lower bc bullets..? I agree recoil is increased because a higher bc bullet is being shot,lol..... A 300 grain 45 caliber bullet (short and fat) compared to a 300 grain 40 caliber bullet (longer and slimmer.) The 40 caliber bullet will have a higher BC if of the same design. Shot at the same speeds the 40 will carry better at long range, however I would think the recoil of the two would be very close to the same. Jeff
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Post by fishhawk on Dec 18, 2014 22:47:18 GMT -5
Where would one get a Bushing plug to fit Savage ML II? And what is the maintenance with a bushing plug? I wanna be cool too Top of the page in yellow "Arrowhead sporting goods" can sell you the bushing plug and and anything else you need. If you already have a Savage plug, I can modify it for the bushing. As far as being cool, I can't help, I've been told cool left me long ago.
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Post by Richard on Dec 18, 2014 22:47:48 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2014 22:55:15 GMT -5
How are match hunters lower bc bullets..? I agree recoil is increased because a higher bc bullet is being shot,lol..... A 300 grain 45 caliber bullet (short and fat) compared to a 300 grain 40 caliber bullet (longer and slimmer.) The 40 caliber bullet will have a higher BC if of the same design. Shot at the same speeds the 40 will carry better at long range, however I would think the recoil of the two would be very close to the same. Jeff If there was a 300gn .40 bullet that was available ..everyone would be building .40 rifles....I see yours and Edges point but for now the higher bc availbles are the 451 match hunters...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 0:09:35 GMT -5
Not actually available but these are 300gr Barnes TSX 405 Win's sized to .399 for Ohioguy. Carlos has already shot a deer with one sized for his .392/.400.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 0:59:56 GMT -5
They are some mean looking bullets, can't wait to shoot them. Thanks again Steve and Carlos for the opportunity to try them. Bushing plugs are cool, 40 cals are cooler..
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 1:05:10 GMT -5
I have not tried them smooth in my 408 MacGowen. Not sure if my 20 twist will stabilize them.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 7:51:11 GMT -5
Those look like a sophisticated brick, get some of these
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Post by bigm00se on Dec 19, 2014 7:52:45 GMT -5
Always been a lite and fast bullet guy. Dont really grasp the BC thing with big heavy bullets having a flatter trajectory. I'd like to stay with a sabotless bullet in the 200 gr. range, maybe up to 250-260 gr. Got several to try when I get the time
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 8:05:27 GMT -5
Those look like a sophisticated brick Get a recoil lug that matches the finish of your action and barrel. If .375 was a legal huntin caliber in MD I would have CmC make me a barrel. Till then I'll throw 240 Cutting Edges at deer....well if I could actually see a deer I would. Is that Ohiodudes .375?
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Post by edge on Dec 19, 2014 8:28:56 GMT -5
BUT The negatives are more recoil and/or lower BC bullets. edge. You have a choice, IF you keep the weight of the bullet the same and shoot to the same velocity then the full bore bullet will have a lower BC...no way around that. IF you want the same BC then the mass of the full bore is greater and you get more recoil...no way around that either! There are clearly a lot of advantages for sabotless which others have pointed out, but that is not the entire picture. I mentioned the negatives to round out what needs to go into the decision assuming you can get equal or at least acceptable accuracy. IMO, acceptable accuracy dictates which bullets/loads I will use, after that my preference would be for a light high BC bullet for deer size animals. Ease of use, would not be my top choice...but it would be up there in the second tier. edge.
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